Welfare: the solution to poverty or a new problem?

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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Sun Mar 16, 2003 12:20 pm

Mahtar Eressë wrote: The poor, sick disabled situation would continue to worsen and there numbers would increase, we would no longer be able to hide the undesirables of today’s society. Because although welfare is exploited by few it is needed by many and to remove well fare is to remove our duty of care to society and would result in us just not caring about our fellow citizens.


That basically sums up what I said earlier.
Here in Europe, there is a large population of teens who finish school but remain unemployed due to the tough job market. A lot of them live on their own, and for them, things like health insurrance, car insurance and other bills can seem like an impossible thing to face. Wellfare helps them get on their feet and then move on to something they can build up themselves. Most teens I know (with teens I refer to 15+) either work part time when in school, or full time when not. But those kids have a high change of getting layed off, and well-fare is needed to make sure these kids have a future.
The short period of 6 weeks that I was unemployed, I worked hard with studying and also finding a new job. I didn't think "oh I will just sit on my ass and get money," becuase I can make so much more money if I actually do something.
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Unread postby Shi Jing Xu » Sun Mar 16, 2003 3:33 pm

I know very little about this issue, but what I do know is; it never works for long. Rome used this after their Punic Wars. They basically 'throw money' at the problem, as the US does. And I don't like how the druggies and alcoholics can live off of it because they're too doped up or drunk to go out and get a job. As for welfare for those really poor, such as a single parent, that is appropriate. It is very hard to draw the line in a situation like this. :?
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Unread postby Russ » Sun Mar 16, 2003 3:37 pm

Welfare has its pro's and con's. The people that deserve it should get it. There are rotten people out there who cheat and lie to get welfare, because they are too lazy. It's like stealing from charity. People are ashamed to be on welfare, I don't think they should be. Everyone needs a helping hand in their lifetime, no shame there. But these greedy people make welfare controversial, which is sad, it's meant to be such a good thing. :(
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Unread postby James » Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:39 pm

Well, here is my view. I think welfare is one of the most abused systems in the United States. There are far too many people who stay on it for years upon years because <insert random excuse here>. There are also others that hop on it because of “disability” when the only thing wrong with them is some sort of “hand problem”. Frankly, these people disgust me, and I would rather they become homeless than live off my taxes.

How could the system be improved? I think we should limit the amount of welfare received by any given member of society to three months every two years. If they still fail after that point, cut them off and leave them to their own devices. It isn’t so hard to get a job at the local McDonalds, and if that is what they need to do in order to survive so be it. Not educated? Go out and buy some books and educate yourself. It isn’t so hard, and again, no sympathy.

I also think we should carefully screen for illegal immigrants. They should not get welfare, Medicaid, food stamps, or anything else for that matter. And they, of all things, should not be able to vote. They pull that off way too often, and the politicians don’t do much to stop them.

What is the exception? Students. I believe we should provided unlimited welfare to college students who, while below a certain income level, college-related money excluded, maintain nothing short of a ‘B’ average. We need a program like this to support education. Tossing more funding to education in general doesn’t do much because our schools do not spend that money on the students, they develop new programs and other crap like that. What is wrong with more books, computers, and other educational aids?

What of the people currently on welfare who are not students? Give them a three-month notice and then cut them off. What of people with serious disability? If someone can prove that their disability truly prevents them from getting work, then set them up on a different disability program which is not based on income (i.e. if Bill Gates loses both of his hands, he does not get billions of dollars a year in benefits). Still have a hand? You can work, tough luck, nothing for you.
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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Mon Mar 17, 2003 5:16 pm

James wrote:How could the system be improved? I think we should limit the amount of welfare received by any given member of society to three months every two years. If they still fail after that point, cut them off and leave them to their own devices. It isn’t so hard to get a job at the local McDonalds, and if that is what they need to do in order to survive so be it. Not educated? Go out and buy some books and educate yourself. It isn’t so hard, and again, no sympathy.


Iie. Here, you need to apply for a job every week, for every week you do not apply for one, you get no money, or if you pretend to apply for one and they check up on you, you lose your wellfare.
For people who cannot work due to health reasons, there is a different system, where you have to visit doctors every month (and a lot of other rules), if you don't do that, or you moonlight, you have to pay back the wellfare you got.

James wrote: I also think we should carefully screen for illegal immigrants. They should not get welfare, Medicaid, food stamps, or anything else for that matter. And they, of all things, should not be able to vote. They pull that off way too often, and the politicians don’t do much to stop them.


Hmmmm..that is tough. Here, immigrants who have been leaving here for years have to re-apply for a green card every year. They have jobs, families etc, but when they don't get a green card, they are "illegal". This system disgusts me, how can you let people build up a life and then send them back? That is so inhuman.
People who have no right to be in the US do not need any benefits, I agree. And why would politicians bother? If I was running for senate, and 50% of my votes are from illegal immigrants, hell, I'd give them clean water for a whole month. :lol:

James wrote: What is the exception? Students. I believe we should provided unlimited welfare to college students who, while below a certain income level, college-related money excluded, maintain nothing short of a ‘B’ average. We need a program like this to support education. Tossing more funding to education in general doesn’t do much because our schools do not spend that money on the students, they develop new programs and other crap like that. What is wrong with more books, computers, and other educational aids?


I agree with you, but that is doubtful. Here, politicians want to abolish the rule of funding for university students. How lame is that? If you know what University costs, you will see that you need that money.

James wrote:What of the people currently on welfare who are not students? Give them a three-month notice and then cut them off. What of people with serious disability? If someone can prove that their disability truly prevents them from getting work, then set them up on a different disability program which is not based on income (i.e. if Bill Gates loses both of his hands, he does not get billions of dollars a year in benefits). Still have a hand? You can work, tough luck, nothing for you.


I think you are a little rough here James. There is more to disability than not having body-parts or whatever. I know people who have chronic back and muscles pains, and are forced to work shit jobs because they don't get benefits, since the doctors think they can work. Those people come home in pain, go to work in pain, do everything in pain. Where is the humanity in that?
Bill Gates cannot get benefits because his income is too high.
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Unread postby James » Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:00 am

Zhou Gongjin wrote:Iie. Here, you need to apply for a job every week, for every week you do not apply for one, you get no money, or if you pretend to apply for one and they check up on you, you lose your wellfare.
For people who cannot work due to health reasons, there is a different system, where you have to visit doctors every month (and a lot of other rules), if you don't do that, or you moonlight, you have to pay back the wellfare you got.

It would be nice if we had even a system of that in effect. I think it still leaves many holes, though. If you are terminated from a job here and meet some basic requirements (worked for around six months, etc.) you can get unemployment. This requires that you apply for a few jobs a week. The system is highly abused, however, as there is nothing stopping people from applying for jobs way above their talents and then getting a flat refusal.

Zhou Gongjin wrote:Hmmmm..that is tough. Here, immigrants who have been leaving here for years have to re-apply for a green card every year. They have jobs, families etc, but when they don't get a green card, they are "illegal". This system disgusts me, how can you let people build up a life and then send them back? That is so inhuman.
People who have no right to be in the US do not need any benefits, I agree. And why would politicians bother? If I was running for senate, and 50% of my votes are from illegal immigrants, hell, I'd give them clean water for a whole month. :lol:

The problem with illegal immigrants, in many cases, is that they avoid many taxes and frequently get jobs under the table (it is illegal to hire them, although that doesn’t stop many people). On top of this they hop on benefits programs. If they were contributing their share to society, as a whole, I would be okay with it, but the fact is that they don’t.

Zhou Gongjin wrote:I agree with you, but that is doubtful. Here, politicians want to abolish the rule of funding for university students. How lame is that? If you know what University costs, you will see that you need that money.

That is very unfortunate indeed. It is amazing that a government will pass over something as important as educating the next generation.

Zhou Gongjin wrote:I think you are a little rough here James. There is more to disability than not having body-parts or whatever. I know people who have chronic back and muscles pains, and are forced to work s*** jobs because they don't get benefits, since the doctors think they can work. Those people come home in pain, go to work in pain, do everything in pain. Where is the humanity in that?

Here the system is not so strict. A person I know has “arm pains’ but she manages to function perfectly in every aspect of her life. At the same time she has the audacity to complain about how “well off” my family is, when she won’t even get a job. People like this need to be cast out of the system and back into the real world, I have no sympathy for leeches of this nature (she takes welfare, and lives off it).

Obviously it would be important to work with the medical system to create a fair approach. The system would not work if doctors were unwilling to provide benefits to people who truly couldn’t work, but they also can’t be too lenient. Frankly, I would hope they are rather strict as creating dependencies is a problem.

Zhou Gongjin wrote:Bill Gates cannot get benefits because his income is too high.

Bill gets a different kind of benefit – the tax breaks which should be going to needy members of the community, not a billionaire.
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Unread postby Sun jian » Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:34 pm

James wrote:Well, here is my view. I think welfare is one of the most abused systems in the United States. There are far too many people who stay on it for years upon years because <insert random excuse here>. There are also others that hop on it because of “disability” when the only thing wrong with them is some sort of “hand problem”. Frankly, these people disgust me, and I would rather they become homeless than live off my taxes.

How could the system be improved? I think we should limit the amount of welfare received by any given member of society to three months every two years. If they still fail after that point, cut them off and leave them to their own devices. It isn’t so hard to get a job at the local McDonalds, and if that is what they need to do in order to survive so be it. Not educated? Go out and buy some books and educate yourself. It isn’t so hard, and again, no sympathy.

I also think we should carefully screen for illegal immigrants. They should not get welfare, Medicaid, food stamps, or anything else for that matter. And they, of all things, should not be able to vote. They pull that off way too often, and the politicians don’t do much to stop them.

What is the exception? Students. I believe we should provided unlimited welfare to college students who, while below a certain income level, college-related money excluded, maintain nothing short of a ‘B’ average. We need a program like this to support education. Tossing more funding to education in general doesn’t do much because our schools do not spend that money on the students, they develop new programs and other crap like that. What is wrong with more books, computers, and other educational aids?

What of the people currently on welfare who are not students? Give them a three-month notice and then cut them off. What of people with serious disability? If someone can prove that their disability truly prevents them from getting work, then set them up on a different disability program which is not based on income (i.e. if Bill Gates loses both of his hands, he does not get billions of dollars a year in benefits). Still have a hand? You can work, tough luck, nothing for you.


I agree with all your statements, James. You think the same way I do. Money is being wasted to pay for people who can work, but won't, while money should go to those who genuinely need it, those with real disabilities, not an injured finger. :evil:
I especially like the last remark cause when my parents were growing up they had to work regardless. There's plenty of work out there, even for somebody with disabilities.
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Unread postby Rhiannon » Sun Mar 30, 2003 4:01 am

One of the things I've heard suggested (from my father) is that we make welfare a work program.

What that means is, people who sign up for welfare, have two options -- work or get into a training program.

Those who choose to work will be set up to do jobs around the community, like cleaning up spray paint, tidying up parks, etc. Women with children won't have an excuse, because some women will be put to work babysitting the other women's children while they work.

Those who choose to get training will be put into a vocational training program of their choice (within a certain budget, naturally -- we're talking from a standard adult school). They can have up to two training programs before they are made to go to work with the rest of the welfare recipients.

The idea is to encourage people to go to work for themselves, and pursue their own life. And those who don't want to, and just want to milk the system, are honestly paying for themselves because they're doing a job in the community that the community is paying them for (through taxes) -- so all works out fairly.

I thought it was a pretty decent, fair system that wasn't too dramatic of a change to cause public outcry. We'd actually be doing something with these people's lives.
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Unread postby James » Mon Mar 31, 2003 12:30 pm

I like your father’s approach to welfare. That could be another good solution.
It would require a separate program for disability, but that is okay.
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Unread postby Rhiannon » Mon Mar 31, 2003 3:51 pm

Yes, I believe he even mentioned that the disabled on welfare would have to go to a seperate program, but he didn't elaborate on that kind of a program. I believe even disabled people could be "put to work" though. You'd have to be an entire invalid to not be able to do anything. They could be on a seperate program, perhaps, but encouraged to do work for extra income each month.
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