Cloning...

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Unread postby Rhiannon » Tue Feb 11, 2003 11:39 pm

I think we want to clone because we're so afraid of death, we want to avoid it entirely.
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Unread postby rcsha » Tue Feb 11, 2003 11:42 pm

Wild-Eyes wrote:I think we want to clone because we're so afraid of death, we want to avoid it entirely.


Hmm, that's a good point. In essence you can live forever if you can clone yourself. Especially if (going into semi-Shwarz mode here), when you die your soul would go into your clone, rather than reincarnate entirely. Assuming clones actually do have no souls of their own.
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Unread postby The Masked Moogle » Tue Feb 11, 2003 11:56 pm

A clone defeats the concept of a "soul" entirely... If a soul is given to a body at birth, what differentiates that body from a soulless one? If a clone has no soul (which it can't, since it's a 100% product of man), what differences will it have from a normal human? According to Dolly et al., none.

Thus, exactly what is a soul? If there is no difference when it's present and when it's not, why do we even bother recognizing it?
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Unread postby Rhiannon » Tue Feb 11, 2003 11:56 pm

rcsha wrote:Hmm, that's a good point. In essence you can live forever if you can clone yourself. Especially if (going into semi-Shwarz mode here), when you die your soul would go into your clone, rather than reincarnate entirely. Assuming clones actually do have no souls of their own.


Right. And even if you cut human cloning out of the picture, people clone their cats and dogs so that they never have to say goodbye, so that they can have their precious "Fluffkins" until they die.

And even without entire cloning, if we settled on just cloning tissues for medical research...well, we already know where that leads without cloning. Cloning I think will make that pursuit to live as long as possible even worse...


In news though, I read that a cloned sheep (not Dolly, and I think this was in Australia) recently died suddenly. Happy and frisky on Friday, found dead and rotting apart on Saturday. If I can find the article, I'll post it here.

Edit: Here's the article.

BBC News wrote:Australia's first cloned sheep, Matilda, has died unexpectedly of unknown causes, scientists said.

An autopsy failed to find any reason for the merino ewe's abrupt death last Saturday, Rob Lewis, director of the South Australian Research and Development institute, said.

The cremation of the carcass triggered criticism among opponents of cloning, who said that there would be no further opportunity to determine what killed Matilda.

Matilda was born in April 2000 from cloned embryos using a similar technology to that used to produce the world's first cloned sheep, Dolly, in Scotland in 1996.

Unexpected Death

Mr Lewis said that Matilda died on Saturday at the research institute near the southern city of Adelaide, but her decomposing carcass was only found the next day.

"The animal has been particularly sprightly and her death was very unexpected," he said.

"There was nothing that was grossly obvious in the organs and outer body. The body's been cremated because it was in a very bad state. To be honest, it was clearly pongy, very pongy."

Mr Lewis said Matilda's death was a blow for the institute's efforts to produce rare sheep with outstanding genes to boost meat and fleece production.

"She was the one that provided the confidence to our science community that we could do this technology. She was the one that gave us standing internationally."

But Mr Lewis said the programme would continue.

Critics of cloning and gene technology said the institute should have made greater efforts in establishing the exact cause of death.

"Animal's don't die and decompose in five minutes," said Bob Phelps of Australia's Gene Ethics Network.

"That's not really very plausible."
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Unread postby Seven at One Stroke » Wed Feb 12, 2003 1:29 am

The Masked Moogle wrote:This is all so frightening...

Growing human tissues? So basically, we make an army of headless people so we can butcher them apart? Yikes...

Cloning slaves? Using human bodies as fertilizer?


Haha! Yeah it's pretty scary I suppose. Tissue is on a lower order than organs, and much less an organism. So headless people are not tissue, but organisms without a brain. You know that the mad cow disease infects only the cows and humans? As of now, if we want to research on ways to combat the pathogen, we can only use either cow brains or human brains, and cows are expensive animals and quite different in genetic structure. Primates are even harder to raise as research test subjects. If there is a way to grow tissue inepxensively, then I'd say it's a big step toward treatment of diseases.

The reason for the cloning of sheep, as pointed out in that article Wilde-Eyes quoted, is to boost the production of wool and meat. It is the same in cows and other animals. With a booming population and the Earth's resources rapidly depleting, coupled with our humans' growing fondness of meat (i.e. hamburgers), how do you think we can feed all the people, if not through genetic modifications? If you can't stop eating cows, then find a way to boost beef production so we don't have to spend so much fertile land on cow feed. Through biotechnology, grain production in the last century has more than doubled (yes, we cloned plants). Without the advancement in scientific research, there's no way that we can support the global population at this date.

Humans as fertilizers are expensive and slow to decompose, it is probably even a more expensive and less viable way to return organic matter to the land. I think the best way to fertilize the land is through the total recycling of organic matter (manure/green manure) and limited use of synthetic fertlizers.

On a matter separate from cloning, we might be able to grow human kidneys in pigs because our genetic structure are relatively similar and pigs are cheap to breed.

I wonder what happened to that sheep, something's very fishy there.
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Real subject.

Unread postby JayWilliamson007 » Wed Feb 12, 2003 6:38 pm

I think that you all have begun to tap the real issue behind cloning... is there any further thought on why people want to do it in the first place :?:
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Unread postby CnB2186 » Wed Feb 12, 2003 6:38 pm

Cloning is only a image of something that use to be. When someone dies move on its a part of life. Why even make a atempt to bring back the past. I'm sorry but i wont want to live forever. See your loved one die, and your friends for genertion after generation. That would suck. :( . And anyways it would'nt really be you but only a copy.
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Unread postby rcsha » Wed Feb 12, 2003 8:13 pm

CnB2186 wrote:I'm sorry but i wont want to live forever. See your loved one die, and your friends for genertion after generation. That would suck.


Umm, why would your friends and loved ones die? They could do the little clone thing too. And even if you were disturbed by watching them die each time...eventually you'd get used to it, I suppose.
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Unread postby Justin » Wed Feb 12, 2003 8:58 pm

You realize these clones while looking exactly the same could end up with very different personalitites. So much of who you are is based on your upbrining. Until we can clone a person into full adult form they are born as babies and have to be raised like a normal person. So while I think cloning is great it has a long way to go before it becomes a truly viable technology.
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Unread postby CnB2186 » Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:18 pm

rcsha wrote:Umm, why would your friends and loved ones die? They could do the little clone thing too. And even if you were disturbed by watching them die each time...eventually you'd get used to it, I suppose.


Yeah they may look like my friend or my wife but be honnest with yourself its not her or him. And anyways she or he wantnt even remember you, cause its a new being but not that exact person.
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