Ideas vs. Beliefs

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Ideas vs. Beliefs

Unread postby Jimayo » Fri Jan 03, 2003 5:51 am

To quote from Dogma
You think beliefs are a bad thing?
I just think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. People die for it, people kill for it. All over a belief.


After some recent debates about rtk(here and other forums). This quote kept springing to mind. It's seems to me that most of us have beliefs about the three k, not ideas. Totally unwilling to change our minds about the subject. To me this seems foolish. An open mind is the way to go. I used to think Zhou Yu was overrated, but because I keep an open mind, Rafe was able to change my opinion(my idea if you will), on the matter.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Sat Jan 04, 2003 1:15 am

And I see another spot in this forum. I've seen numerous posts where a person uses the bible as "proof" in their arguments, but isn't the bible a matter of belief?

There is no evidence of anything in the bible, yet people believe it implicitly and blindly follow what it says. Another area where I think ideas would be better than beliefs.
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Unread postby James » Sat Jan 04, 2003 1:32 am

I have been watching this ever since I first joined the RTK community. I have noticed that many people pick a kingdom to defend over all others, and that they aren’t really open to any sort of new opinions in relation to that kingdom. Sometimes they choose another kingdom and decide that it is a waste. Same goes for officers.

One example I have noticed is overprotective of or hateful toward the Shu officers because of the special attention they received in the novel. The same can go for other major characters in the novel. Probably because we don’t like the historical inconsistency?

I try to be open minded about all new ideas, at the very least I am very fond of officers in all Three Kingdoms (going further on the Three Kingdoms line of thought). I admit that sometimes I am overeager to defend certain officers that other people are overeager to attack for no good reason.

I completely agree that this moves into regular life sometimes too. We grow up being taught that some things are a certain way and that there is no exception. Religion is an excellent example of this, but so is racism and many other parts of humanity. The only way around it is to take in and consider everything equally, and that can be a difficult task when you depend so much on your beliefs.

Generally speaking, when we are afraid to defend something we know a great deal about in a debate because we know the arguments are so strong, we are looking at one of those situations we should be considering carefully, not turning our noses up at.
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Unread postby Travis » Sat Jan 04, 2003 2:31 pm

I've hardly used the Bible for proof unless I am argueing in something that involves religion. I used scripture to be proof as to why Christians would be believe homosexuality is wrong, and debates in the Religions thread. I think it is baised to toss aside an arguement because it has scripture in it with out seeing what the debate was about in the first place. And yes I believe, I would be glad to fight and die for my faith as long as the cause is just, say some one was trying to destroy it off the planet, yes. A crusade, no.
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Unread postby Shi Jing Xu » Sat Jan 04, 2003 11:40 pm

I have kept an open-mind I believe. When I came here, I would have defended Liu Bei to my death! :lol: But now, I've been swayed to the dark side *cough* Wu *cough* :lol:, and I still learn more all the time. I dont have time to read the book, so this helps....
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Unread postby Andrew J » Sun Jan 05, 2003 12:21 am

Well, im not religious so i dont read the bible and I think beliefs are a good thing. Espescially mine about me having a better life than the "idiots". Beliefs arent a bad thing. IS what I said anything to do with this topic?
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Unread postby Seven at One Stroke » Sun Jan 05, 2003 2:05 am

Taishi Ci wrote:I've hardly used the Bible for proof unless I am argueing in something that involves religion. I used scripture to be proof as to why Christians would be believe homosexuality is wrong, and debates in the Religions thread. I think it is baised to toss aside an arguement because it has scripture in it with out seeing what the debate was about in the first place. And yes I believe, I would be glad to fight and die for my faith as long as the cause is just, say some one was trying to destroy it off the planet, yes. A crusade, no.


The problem with an argument based solely on religion is that...well, there isn't any room for debate.
Take homosexuality for example:
A (a Christian): God said that homosexuals are sinners.
B (an Atheist): God doesn't exist, and therefore his words are nil.

You can't really argue for or against A, because there really isn't any common ground for debate. Religious texts tend to put things down and asks people to take it in at face value. You either agree with a religion or you don't, it makes discussions very difficult.

Now if A goes a step forward and argues WHY God would consider homosexuals to be sinners based on Christian morals and other principles, then it is likely that A doesn't even need religious texts to back him up, because from this point on it should be fairly intuitive.
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Unread postby James » Sun Jan 05, 2003 2:04 pm

The problem with religious debate is that it is based off faith. It is easy enough to say that “<book> says this is the case, so it is this way, and I am not willing to consider other points of view”. The thing, however, is that this attitude leaves no room for learning and freedom of thought. The vast majority of us attempt to debate off fact alone, and modern ethics, and we do not bring our religions (i/a) into our views and debates unless we are specifically debating religion (in which case I still don’t bring them in). The reason for this is because I want to hold only beliefs that I believe and can defend; I never want to have to say “it is a matter of faith, so I trust”.
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Unread postby Travis » Mon Jan 06, 2003 1:55 am

TheYellowDwarf wrote:Now if A goes a step forward and argues WHY God would consider homosexuals to be sinners based on Christian morals and other principles, then it is likely that A doesn't even need religious texts to back him up, because from this point on it should be fairly intuitive.


That's exactly what I did, I said in the "Gay and Lesbian Marriage" thread, as long as you don't claim to be Christian and be a Gay couple than more power to ya. I got asked for proof as to why god would believe Homosexuals to be sinners so I presented my scripture. I think my arguement got tossed aside or was thrown about as coming off as saying "Gay and Lesbians shouldn't be married at all" which was my personal belief not what I thought should happen. But hey that's what this place is all about.
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Unread postby Shi Jing Xu » Mon Jan 06, 2003 2:45 am

I am a Christian, but I'm not one of those "Smack you in the face" Christians. I mean, I believe in Jesus, but I don't believe that if you are homosexual you will go to hell; that's just wrong. I don't think people can help to be that way.
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