Human cloned.

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Do you think that cloning humans is ethical?

Yes.
6
30%
No.
7
35%
I am kinda torn...
7
35%
 
Total votes : 20

Unread postby Travis » Thu Jan 02, 2003 11:49 pm

James wrote:
Taishi Ci wrote:Really there is no proof, you just have to have faith. Secondly, They will have no soul because only God can give you a Soul. We are not God no matter how hard we try to be him.

Although I believe we have a soul, I really cannot imagine why I would want to devote my faith to someone so reliant upon humanity. I think many of us feel that way.


God isn't reliant upon humanity. He could function very well on his own as he did before we were created. The fact he cares so much about us he would devote this amount of effort to us is why I worship him.
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Unread postby rcsha » Thu Jan 02, 2003 11:58 pm

Everyone says we're playing god by doing this (royal 'we' mind you, I had no part in the experiement). Well with the corruption of the earth and all of the problems we have, including issues that religeon cause...could we not possibly do a better job than god? I mean it's just like a business, if someone's not doing a good job you fire them and hire someone else...we're merely hiring from within our own ranks.

Mind you this is entirely hypothetically proposed and half jokingly at that...it's hard to refer to god as an actual person, or an actual being period...darn this Aethiest soul! Lol, just kidding. It's just hard to refer to any god like they exist, you see my religeon doesn't permit the belief of gods... :roll:

I'm sorry, I really shouldn't speak in the religeous debates...I just find religeon a little odd... :?
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Unread postby Travis » Fri Jan 03, 2003 12:08 am

rcsha wrote:Everyone says we're playing god by doing this (royal 'we' mind you, I had no part in the experiement). Well with the corruption of the earth and all of the problems we have, including issues that religeon cause...could we not possibly do a better job than god? I mean it's just like a business, if someone's not doing a good job you fire them and hire someone else...we're merely hiring from within our own ranks.


Better than God? Nothing can do better than God, we are doomed to fail. If we succeed in making a clone, that's not even on par with god. As I said form a religious stand point, it will have no soul and therefore is not better than any of us.
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Unread postby rcsha » Fri Jan 03, 2003 12:17 am

Taishi Ci wrote:Better than God? Nothing can do better than God, we are doomed to fail. If we succeed in making a clone, that's not even on par with god. As I said form a religious stand point, it will have no soul and therefore is not better than any of us.


But what if we don't fail. What if we are able to mass produce people? Out of mere cells of another, and like James pointed out...they are born from a normal birth, hence they could contain a soul.

So if we can mass produce soulful people with only a cell or two from one person, then are we not better than god? He needed an entire rib to make a woman, admittingly we can't make a man from dirt (well at least not a clone) but we can surely scrape the bone cells off of a man and make a clone (assuming the procedure they used did work).
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Unread postby Travis » Fri Jan 03, 2003 12:31 am

rcsha wrote:
Taishi Ci wrote:Better than God? Nothing can do better than God, we are doomed to fail. If we succeed in making a clone, that's not even on par with god. As I said form a religious stand point, it will have no soul and therefore is not better than any of us.


But what if we don't fail. What if we are able to mass produce people? Out of mere cells of another, and like James pointed out...they are born from a normal birth, hence they could contain a soul.

So if we can mass produce soulful people with only a cell or two from one person, then are we not better than god? He needed an entire rib to make a woman, admittingly we can't make a man from dirt (well at least not a clone) but we can surely scrape the bone cells off of a man and make a clone (assuming the procedure they used did work).


They aren't born naturally. Things have to be made a certian way to have a soul. Making a clone, born from a woman, is still not natural. These things will never have a soul, no matter how hard we try to debate it.

Also you disproved yourself, God made us from dirt. Like to see them try that :lol:
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Unread postby rcsha » Fri Jan 03, 2003 12:38 am

Taishi Ci wrote:They aren't born naturally. Things have to be made a certian way to have a soul. Making a clone, born from a woman, is still not natural. These things will never have a soul, no matter how hard we try to debate it.

Also you disproved yourself, God made us from dirt. Like to see them try that :lol:


I disproved myself, how? Again, hypothetically speaking, God made one [person from dirt, a second from that person's rib...and they made the rest of them. Maybe God was just lucky, who's to say he didn't spend 5 thousand yeas making clay figures until one finally came to life through some sort of miracle with an energy transmission?

And where is it stated that people have to made a certain way for there to be a soul? What about general artificial insemination? Do those babies have a soul? If so, then why wouldn't the clones? The only difference is that the normal artificial insemination was done with sperm, and the clone was done with blood.

So what's the difference?
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Unread postby James » Fri Jan 03, 2003 12:51 am

Taishi Ci wrote:God isn't reliant upon humanity. He could function very well on his own as he did before we were created. The fact he cares so much about us he would devote this amount of effort to us is why I worship him.

Don’t forget that you are talking to someone who believes that the concept of “God” is derived from our own history and minds. He cannot exist without us because we created him; this is how I see it. To say he cares for us at all is a leap of faith; we don’t know what the man will have to say to us when we die (if he is there), or what he has done for us in life. I’ll worry about me in the here and the now and accomplish everything on my own. Not a religious attack, just my view on the matter from a religious perspective.

Taishi Ci wrote:Better than God? Nothing can do better than God, we are doomed to fail. If we succeed in making a clone, that's not even on par with god. As I said form a religious stand point, it will have no soul and therefore is not better than any of us.

If a soul comes into us when we are born, it is bound to be at a stage after insemination, correct? All of this occurs naturally in a clone, so there is no reason to believe that they cannot receive a soul (I am amused by the fact that I am debating two issues which I am not fond of). Furthermore, do you believe a human could live and function without a soul? The cloned sheep, even if it has problems, is alive and thinks for itself.

Taishi Ci wrote:They aren't born naturally. Things have to be made a certian way to have a soul. Making a clone, born from a woman, is still not natural. These things will never have a soul, no matter how hard we try to debate it.

Things have to be made a certain way to have a soul? Where does it say this, what are your sources? It sounds like personal interpretation to me.
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Unread postby rcsha » Fri Jan 03, 2003 12:55 am

Woah, James. It seems like we're nearly completely in agreement with each other, lol. Except for the fact that I'm incredibly senile and you seem perfectly normal.

Edit: Rather than senile, I meant cynical...however I left it in there for a bit of humor. nothing wrong with making a mistake, heh.
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Unread postby Travis » Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:22 am

James wrote:Don’t forget that you are talking to someone who believes that the concept of “God” is derived from our own history and minds. He cannot exist without us because we created him; this is how I see it. To say he cares for us at all is a leap of faith; we don’t know what the man will have to say to us when we die (if he is there), or what he has done for us in life. I’ll worry about me in the here and the now and accomplish everything on my own. Not a religious attack, just my view on the matter from a religious perspective.


See my arguement on this was from the Christian stand point. I don't recall who said it, but it was the question of could religion be disaproved by Human Cloning. So naturally I am arguing for what I belive in, not everyone else.

James wrote: If a soul comes into us when we are born, it is bound to be at a stage after insemination, correct? All of this occurs naturally in a clone, so there is no reason to believe that they cannot receive a soul (I am amused by the fact that I am debating two issues which I am not fond of). Furthermore, do you believe a human could live and function without a soul? The cloned sheep, even if it has problems, is alive and thinks for itself.


In Christianity, many believe that when God made the rules for sexual engagement to be followed and that was the extent of the command. He said nothing of clones or artificially insimination, therefore when they take thier first breath, they have no soul. I'm sure that clones can function well, but I woudln't consider them human (Yes that does sound evil and hateful). They are lab experiments not a people, they are actually some one else.

James wrote:Things have to be made a certain way to have a soul? Where does it say this, what are your sources? It sounds like personal interpretation to me.


As I said this end up wrong, but try the entire book of Leviticus in the Bible.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Fri Jan 03, 2003 6:52 am

All I gotta say is. Woohoo!!!! Go science. Do whatever it takes to increase human knowledge.
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