Is any war 'Just'?

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Unread postby James » Mon Dec 23, 2002 5:27 am

moshiman wrote:You know, just to briefly go off-topic, has anyone seen that South Park episode about Santa Clause, Jesus, and Iraqees?

Keep this out of Current Affairs.

moshiman wrote:And, person, if ppl think going to the North Pole is useless, why bomb each other's homeland and everyone more pissed? If it's pointles, why do it in each other's countries?

Because George Bush cannot go to Saddam and say, “You know, this stuff hurts our homelands, lets go to the North Pole instead and blow up polar bears.”

moshiman wrote:Just to add to this, why is America so afraid of one terrorist attack? Ppl get bombed on a lot in places like Cambodia and Vietnam and other places...

Because terrorist attack kill people. Generally, that is considered a good reason to be concerned about them. Bush isn’t going to think to himself, “gee, those guys get bombed a lot, I sure wish we could get bombed too.” In the future please limit your Current Affairs participation to enlightening or thought-provoking posts, or defend your views with posts that at least make sense.
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Unread postby Harimau » Mon Dec 23, 2002 6:56 am

Xiao Gui wrote:2. Does US citizens know that US soldiers in Japan, for 30 years, have been causing lots of problems there? The most recent one would be 5 American soliders gang raped a 12 year old girl. Obviously, no legal action could be taken because US's international policy that no US citizens can be criminalized outside of US. This is still happening.


The US soldiers stationed there was actually one
of the factors for Japans Booming economy. The
spending of US soldiers with US dollars helped
strengthen the economy of Japan by placing it under
a solid base, the Greenback. Though it is disgusting
what the US soldiers are allowed to do there, some
of the people of Japan are actually quite grateful to
the American Soldiers. Another thing, they also
insured that no country would counter attack Japan
after Japan attacked them in WWII.

Sam Da Man wrote:The same could be said about Hitler. He thought that he did no wrong and in the eyes of his people they weren't doing wrong. As society develops barbaric ways are condemned and more civilized rules installed.


Heh civilisation is barbarianism with rules. Look at some of the results
of modern civilisation. They are just barbarians in better clothes with
some rules written down that they never follow.
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Unread postby Seven at One Stroke » Fri Dec 27, 2002 7:56 am

My opinion is that: wars can be justified, but they can never be Just.
War kills people, and the soldiers are the killers. Murder is never Just.
From a religioius point of view, the bible says "Thou shall not kill," not "Thou shall not kill those thou doth not wish to kill."
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Unread postby Travis » Fri Dec 27, 2002 8:15 am

TheYellowDwarf wrote:My opinion is that: wars can be justified, but they can never be Just.
War kills people, and the soldiers are the killers. Murder is never Just.
From a religioius point of view, the bible says "Thou shall not kill," not "Thou shall not kill those thou doth not wish to kill."


I don't think A soldier killing an enemy soldier is murder.

Murder- the unlawful killing of one Human being by another esp. when premeditated.

Note the word Unlawful, so it isn't Murder. The killing of a Soldier in warfare is not Illegal.

Also In my Bible it says "Thou Shalt not Murder" strange but true....
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Unread postby James » Fri Dec 27, 2002 8:40 am

Taishi Ci wrote:I don't think A soldier killing an enemy soldier is murder.
Murder- the unlawful killing of one Human being by another esp. when premeditated.
Note the word Unlawful, so it isn't Murder. The killing of a Soldier in warfare is not Illegal.
Also In my Bible it says "Thou Shalt not Murder" strange but true....

You are using modern legal definitions to explain text in a book written many years ago. It can’t work that way. A just person doesn’t desire to kill anyone. Also do not forget that the bible (not an infallible text as some claim) was a translation, so there is another hurdle in seeking a literal definition for “murder” in that text.
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Unread postby Dragon » Fri Dec 27, 2002 10:19 am

Wars are definetly justifiable. You people seem to look at it as though it is just a bunch of people going out and killing each other. It's much more then that. I say the main good reasons for war are;

1. To protect. One must protect what they love from danger if they wish to do so. This doesn't have to be of loved ones, it can be your country, town or home.

2. Justice. If one country is attacking a tiny country just because they can, it isn't right. If another country where to jump in and help then it is okay, that's NATO.

3. To prevent. A war may happen to stop something in the future which may be even worse. A good example would be US attacking Iraq. If they don't go in then Saddam may have an itchy trigger finger one day and deside to nuke Cananda :cry: (my country).

These reason are very logical and understandable in my view.
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Unread postby Mu Shu » Sat Dec 28, 2002 1:59 am

War is not really about killing and destroying. The real goal of War is to achieve strategic objectives and protect vital interests. War is actually: "diplomacy by other means".

War in itself is not unjust. By how it is carried out can make it unjust...
Last edited by Mu Shu on Sat Dec 28, 2002 7:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Travis » Sat Dec 28, 2002 2:21 am

James wrote:You are using modern legal definitions to explain text in a book written many years ago. It can’t work that way. A just person doesn’t desire to kill anyone. Also do not forget that the bible (not an infallible text as some claim) was a translation, so there is another hurdle in seeking a literal definition for “murder” in that text.


Even so, people killed each other in the Bible constantly in warfare. The Story of David (my Favorite story) pits David in combat all the time against the enemies of Isreal. Hey he even cut off one hundred foreskins :twisted: . I believe the Bible in this sense is trying to tell us that War can be justified if fought for the right means.
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Unread postby Mu Shu » Sat Dec 28, 2002 7:16 am

Taishi Ci wrote:Even so, people killed each other in the Bible constantly in warfare. The Story of David (my Favorite story) pits David in combat all the time against the enemies of Isreal. Hey he even cut off one hundred foreskins :twisted: . I believe the Bible in this sense is trying to tell us that War can be justified if fought for the right means.


In the multi-cultural world we live in, the Bible cannot be the final say in what is just and what is unjust. What is just or unjust is more of a visceral human feeling determined not just by religion but also by other cultural factors, legal traditions, and even mass media. In fact the idea of justice has changed over time. The ancient Mesopotamians believed literally in "an eye for an eye". These days its more like "an eye for a large monetary settlement and possibly some jail time". What is just or unjust is very much a social phenonmenon and not a fixed law of nature.
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Unread postby Seven at One Stroke » Sat Dec 28, 2002 7:32 am

My definitions:
Justify: to pardon or excuse an action based on its actual effects or some other premises. (note that something justified isn't necessarily just)

Justice: comformity to correctness.

Example: A calls B a name, and B insults A back. The action can be justified, but insulting another person is not "right" itself.

Something justified isn't something just, and certainly not something Just.

I believe that everybody has a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, in that order, because we are all humans created to be equals. I think this is the a truth universal and everlasting. Furthermore, no-one, under any circumstances can rob others of their right to their own life. Yes, killing can be justified in many situations, self-defense being one of them, but it's never Just. It is not right, although the action may be unavoidable.
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