Is any war 'Just'?

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Re: Question

Unread postby Travis » Sun Dec 22, 2002 10:05 pm

Xiao Gui wrote:
Taishi Ci wrote:I was more or less reffering to the manipulative people who are in charge that are educated like Osama bin Laden.

War is never neccessary. But to join a war to end it or for self defence is neccessary.
However, I am much troubled by the US's war of terrorism (oops I mean on terrorism)
I have just have few questions:
1. Does US celebrate remembrance day? I know Canada does...
2. Does US citizens know that US soldiers in Japan, for 30 years, have been causing lots of problems there? The most recent one would be 5 American soliders gang raped a 12 year old girl. Obviously, no legal action could be taken because US's international policy that no US citizens can be criminalized outside of US. This is still happening.
3. Bush is well educated too. Can he (and the US media) possibly be manipulating their citizens? All I know is that not many people like Bush outside of US. Especially those poor innocent people US had bombed and will be bombing.... :cry: Let's hope that they are dying for a 'greater' cause, a cause that is more precious then their life...


Bush is well educated, but he can't control the media because the key of my statment was the government owned the media. And in the US the Media Is controlled by private business. Much of the people he bombed think Bush is bombing them for no utter reason other than he is white devil who has come to eraticate Islam. The reason others don't like him is because for the past 8 years (the Clinton Presidency) they have been getting away with crap, and avoiding tough issues. And Bush is simply not tolerating it.

And the US does celebrate Rememberance Day, infact I know in my school we had a massive ceremony where the school got togetehr in the gymnaium and people were free to get up and express thier thoughts and feelings about that day. then several people gave speeches. It took up half the day. Later on we watch a video school wide for about 15 mins, and had a moment of silence at the beginning and the end of the day. And wasn't even 9/11 it was friday before hand. My chruch had a ceremony about it and TV was ballistic with things about 9/11. Songs and other thigns came out about this time too. In Answer yes the US celebrates Rememberance Day.

Yes indeed I knew all about the Japanese story, it was all over the media when that girl was raped.
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Re: Question

Unread postby Fan Kong » Sun Dec 22, 2002 10:35 pm

Taishi Ci wrote: And in the US the Media Is controlled by private business.

Come again? US media is controlled by corporations = public company. The GOP is also considered the "corporate" party. Republicans pass legislation that benefit big business...... i.e. corporations. In turn corporations make huge "political" contributions and many other "favors" to the Republican party. Anywhere outside of the U.S., this is corruption.

Also, there are many just wars. Any war to get rid of the foreign invaders is just. Except for the American revolution, that was probably one of the most hypocritical wars for a lame reason.
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Unread postby Justin » Sun Dec 22, 2002 10:47 pm

I think sometimes violence is justified. If you have to kill someone or a group of people that will do anything in their power to kill lots more people you have a very just reason to do so. If I knew that killing one man would save the lives of hundereds or even 1 other person I would do it.

Does that mean I would like doing it? No it doesn't and I would have to live with the knowledge of what I did for the rest of my life. No one likes it, but to preserve a greater peace sometimes violence must be used.

* a little offtopic* And what was the hypocrisy behind the American Revolution? As I remember taxation without representation was the root cause. They did what every people should do, if you don't like your situation change it. More oppressed people should do the same, don't just whine and moan and say this is unfair. Get out and do something.
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Re: Question

Unread postby Travis » Sun Dec 22, 2002 10:49 pm

Fan Kong wrote:
Taishi Ci wrote: And in the US the Media Is controlled by private business.

Come again? US media is controlled by corporations = public company. The GOP is also considered the "corporate" party. Republicans pass legislation that benefit big business...... i.e. corporations. In turn corporations make huge "political" contributions and many other "favors" to the Republican party. Anywhere outside of the U.S., this is corruption.

Also, there are many just wars. Any war to get rid of the foreign invaders is just. Except for the American revolution, that was probably one of the most hypocritical wars for a lame reason.


I was reffering to FOX News, Kinda goofed. Even if they are controlled by public Business Bush has no controll over them or else he wouldn't allow people to speak out against him on air. :roll: Is it really hurting anything that they do this? So what, I mean if your so concerned go lobby against it or vote for some one whom is against this, that is beauty of American Polotics. Obviously your reason isn't bothering anything, or else there would be mass more amount of complaints against it.

Now the American Revolution was just. England had been ignoring the US for the past two hundred years b/c it had been fighitng wars and had power struggles with in it's own nation. The US had grown accustom to governing itself, and then England came in to try and force the US to pay for it's wars through heavy taxes, which the US didn't really have anything to do with other than the French and Indian War. It like a child whose parent's neglected them for 20 years then asking that child for money to pay the rent. It was just in tolerable also because Britian refused to let the US have it's say in the matter, so we really couldn't do anything but get rid of them.
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Re: Question

Unread postby Fan Kong » Sun Dec 22, 2002 10:57 pm

Taishi Ci wrote: I was reffering to FOX News, Kinda goofed. Even if they are controlled by public Business Bush has no controll over them or else he wouldn't allow people to speak out against him on air. :roll: Is it really hurting anything that they do this? So what, I mean if your so concerned go lobby against it or vote for some one whom is against this, that is beauty of American Polotics. Obviously your reason isn't bothering anything, or else there would be mass more amount of complaints against it.

No I never said Bush "controls" the media. The gov't has a great and I do mean GREAT deal of influence over American media. And there are plenty of complaints.......you think I came up with this stuff on my own?

Now the American Revolution was just. England had been ignoring the US for the past two hundred years b/c it had been fighitng wars and had power struggles with in it's own nation. The US had grown accustom to governing itself, and then England came in to try and force the US to pay for it's wars through heavy taxes, which the US didn't really have anything to do with other than the French and Indian War. It like a child whose parent's neglected them for 20 years then asking that child for money to pay the rent. It was just in tolerable also because Britian refused to let the US have it's say in the matter, so we really couldn't do anything but get rid of them.

They did not neglect the colonies for 200 years. Remember the French Indian War? England defeated the French and gave the colonies supremacy in what is now the U.S.

Yea, poor colonies. They had to pay a little extra taxes. And they were taxed for a reason.......they got FREE LAND. So they start killing off the native americans, start colonizing other countries......oppressing their people....and depleting their resources. Do you think any of these people gave a crap about "taxation with representation"?
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Unread postby Travis » Sun Dec 22, 2002 11:17 pm

No the French and Indian War was little more than a scuffle. They Did neglect the colonies for two hundered years. The French and Indian War was small, and the only reason the British really helped is b/c they didn't like the French, if it had been the Natives over running they would have cared less. As I said, America shouldn't have to pay for a British war when they ignored them for 200 years. They got "FREELAND" as you put it because, no government owned the land to sell it to them it was Free err... The Natives didn't believe you could own land just like we believe you can't own the air you breath, so we couldn't buy it from them. What people tend not to understand is that logic from modern day cannot apply to the Colonial Era. Every country committed horrible things during this time because they believed the races were inferior. Hell even Canada and Mexico did this. So boo hoo we oppressed people, every country has done this, not Just America. I don't see you dogging the Spanish for destroying the Aztec Empire or Toppling the Incan Emipre? Nor did I see you jumping on Canada for disrupting the Eskimo's lives. The simple fact is Horrible things are committed in history, and our logic doesn't apply to them.

Secondly, complaints can't be that great or else an end would have been put to it long ago.
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Re: Question

Unread postby Sam Da Man » Sun Dec 22, 2002 11:19 pm

Fan Kong wrote:
Taishi Ci wrote: I was reffering to FOX News, Kinda goofed. Even if they are controlled by public Business Bush has no controll over them or else he wouldn't allow people to speak out against him on air. :roll: Is it really hurting anything that they do this? So what, I mean if your so concerned go lobby against it or vote for some one whom is against this, that is beauty of American Polotics. Obviously your reason isn't bothering anything, or else there would be mass more amount of complaints against it.

No I never said Bush "controls" the media. The gov't has a great and I do mean GREAT deal of influence over American media. And there are plenty of complaints.......you think I came up with this stuff on my own?

Now the American Revolution was just. England had been ignoring the US for the past two hundred years b/c it had been fighitng wars and had power struggles with in it's own nation. The US had grown accustom to governing itself, and then England came in to try and force the US to pay for it's wars through heavy taxes, which the US didn't really have anything to do with other than the French and Indian War. It like a child whose parent's neglected them for 20 years then asking that child for money to pay the rent. It was just in tolerable also because Britian refused to let the US have it's say in the matter, so we really couldn't do anything but get rid of them.

They did not neglect the colonies for 200 years. Remember the French Indian War? England defeated the French and gave the colonies supremacy in what is now the U.S.

Yea, poor colonies. They had to pay a little extra taxes. And they were taxed for a reason.......they got FREE LAND. So they start killing off the native americans, start colonizing other countries......oppressing their people....and depleting their resources. Do you think any of these people gave a crap about "taxation with representation"?


Well you are right in a few ways but I disagree with some. You have to take in account the way of thinking back then. Slavery and killing indigineous people was looked at alright back then. America rebelling against England was a sign of destroying oppresion of which they lived under. Taking land away from the natives was just a sign of imperialism(which was practiced and thought good at the time).
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Unread postby Fan Kong » Sun Dec 22, 2002 11:22 pm

Think long and hard folks.......you say thinking was different back then? You guys are speaking from a colonizer's point of view. Think from the view of the colonized for once.

Secondly, complaints can't be that great or else an end would have been put to it long ago.

Just because you are unaware of those complaint does not mean they are not great. Is there not a movement against the power of corporations in America? Are there not complaints about the political contribution system? Open your eyes, people are complaining. However, its extremely difficult considering you are going up against the corporations and the U.S. government.
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Unread postby Travis » Mon Dec 23, 2002 12:00 am

Fan Kong wrote:Think long and hard folks.......you say thinking was different back then? You guys are speaking from a colonizer's point of view. Think from the view of the colonized for once.

Secondly, complaints can't be that great or else an end would have been put to it long ago.

Just because you are unaware of those complaint does not mean they are not great. Is there not a movement against the power of corporations in America? Are there not complaints about the political contribution system? Open your eyes, people are complaining. However, its extremely difficult considering you are going up against the corporations and the U.S. government.


The colonized and enslaved often did it to themselves long before European powers interfered. They were no different that the rest of the world. I really do think US policy on campgain finiace has anythign to do with Just wars. :?
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Unread postby Sam Da Man » Mon Dec 23, 2002 12:04 am

Fan Kong wrote:Think long and hard folks.......you say thinking was different back then? You guys are speaking from a colonizer's point of view. Think from the view of the colonized for once.

.


It must have been bad but for the sake of discussin america I will look at it from an americans viewpoint(which is their way of thinking and cannot be blamed.) They can be blamed from anothers viewpoint but in their eyes they did no wrong. The same could be said about Hitler. He thought that he did no wrong and in the eyes of his people they weren't doing wrong. As society develops barbaric ways are condemned and more civilized rules installed. That is the reason past societies cannot be blamed for what they have done. There are things done nowadays which will be considered barbaric in the future but we as a society don't know any better so we cannot be blamed.
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