Is any war 'Just'?

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Unread postby Fan Kong » Wed Jan 01, 2003 9:16 pm

The bombing of civilian cities to inflict TERROR upon its people. You TERRORIZE these people in hopes that their government would be so fed up with the TERRORISM , that they will give in to the invading country's demands.

Is that not intentional bombing of civilians? Then there are villages, which may or may not contain Viet Cong. So you napalm the village so that all teh villagers run from their homes in terror. Why do you think napalm was so popular in Vietnam?.......its just burned and burned these people's homes to ashes. Now the brave Americans go in and look for Viet Cong. And do I need to mention My Lai? Were American GI's raping Vietnamese women and children meant to bring the Viet Cong out of the jungles to fight? Do I even need to mention Agent Orange? That is chemical warfare and terrorism in one single campaign.....and the Americans want to criticized Saddam for doing the same.....please. :roll:
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Unread postby Mu Shu » Wed Jan 01, 2003 10:09 pm

Fan Kong wrote:The bombing of civilian cities to inflict TERROR upon its people. You TERRORIZE these people in hopes that their government would be so fed up with the TERRORISM , that they will give in to the invading country's demands.

Is that not intentional bombing of civilians? Then there are villages, which may or may not contain Viet Cong. So you napalm the village so that all teh villagers run from their homes in terror. Why do you think napalm was so popular in Vietnam?.......its just burned and burned these people's homes to ashes. Now the brave Americans go in and look for Viet Cong. And do I need to mention My Lai? Were American GI's raping Vietnamese women and children meant to bring the Viet Cong out of the jungles to fight? Do I even need to mention Agent Orange? That is chemical warfare and terrorism in one single campaign.....and the Americans want to criticized Saddam for doing the same.....please. :roll:


Very good point. Agent Orange is clearly a chemical and biological weapon. The US has more nuclear, chemical and biological weapons than any country in the world. The US won't allow Iraq or Iran to develop nuclear weapons. Yet it is okay for Israel, India, Pakistan and a host of other countries to develop and possess nuclear weapons and ballistic missles.

The reason why US policy is so confusing it that it tries to moralize things that cannot be simply moralized. This is one of the deficiencies of American democracy. People need to be lied to in order to get their support. The American system forces politicians to sometimes become dishonest salesmen. They are forced to sell their policies under the guise of being "just" while at the same time slander their opponents as being "evil".

Sadly, this kind of oversimplification has been proven to work well in the past with the American public. But people in other parts of the world find it very confusing and conclude that American policymakers are simply Machivellean.
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Unread postby Travis » Wed Jan 01, 2003 10:21 pm

Fan Kong wrote:And do I need to mention My Lai? Were American GI's raping Vietnamese women and children meant to bring the Viet Cong out of the jungles to fight?


The My Lai Massacre was instigated by Colonel. The Colonal was sentenced to life in prison on charges of murder. Appeals poured in and he was released. American soldiers never raped anyone during this, they killed 300 civillians. All the soldiers were told was to go in guns balzing, by a colonel, the soldiers thought they were killing the enemy, It was at night all and the Vietcong could be anyone. What ever history book or web site you read was propaganda. All ten of the websites I went to said this.

Fan Kong wrote:The bombing of civilian cities to inflict TERROR upon its people. You TERRORIZE these people in hopes that their government would be so fed up with the TERRORISM , that they will give in to the invading country's demands.

Is that not intentional bombing of civilians? Then there are villages, which may or may not contain Viet Cong. So you napalm the village so that all teh villagers run from their homes in terror. Why do you think napalm was so popular in Vietnam?.......its just burned and burned these people's homes to ashes. Now the brave Americans go in and look for Viet Cong


The bombing of villages in Vietnam was not to strike terror. The Vietcong were taking these villages and hiding in them. The US did the best they could to not bomb villages that had civilians in them. But the Govt. cut thier resources and refused to let them do thier job to thier full extent, thus creating errors.

Fan Kong wrote:Do I even need to mention Agent Orange? That is chemical warfare and terrorism in one single campaign.....


Terrorism and Chemical warfare.... ha, Agent Oragne was a Herbicide (something to kill dense thickets of plants of Vietnam) that had adverse effects on US and Vietnamese forces. I would like to know where you got all these crazy Idea's from......
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Unread postby Mu Shu » Wed Jan 01, 2003 10:28 pm

Taishi Ci wrote:
Terrorism and Chemical warfare.... ha, Agent Oragne was a Herbicide (something to kill dense thickets of plants of Vietnam) that had adverse effects on US and Vietnamese forces. I would like to know where you got all these crazy Idea's from......


Herbicides are clearly chemical and biological weapons when sprayed on innocent women and children!!! :x
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Unread postby Travis » Wed Jan 01, 2003 10:43 pm

Mu Shu wrote:Herbicides are clearly chemical and biological weapons when sprayed on innocent women and children!!! :x


Did they intentionally spray this on innocent people? No. They were spraying it primarily around thier bases to set up a clear kill zone. Did they fly airplanes over Hanoi and and drop tanks of Agent Orange onto them? Hardly. The only civillian places that may have been affected would be if it was blown by the wind towards a village. Again, blame the government and war protestors for not allowing the soldiers to fight the war properly. Mistakes like these could have been avoided to a much greater degree if the proper time and effort was put into the war.
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Unread postby Mu Shu » Wed Jan 01, 2003 11:09 pm

Taishi Ci wrote:
Mu Shu wrote:Herbicides are clearly chemical and biological weapons when sprayed on innocent women and children!!! :x


Did they intentionally spray this on innocent people? No. They were spraying it primarily around thier bases to set up a clear kill zone. Did they fly airplanes over Hanoi and and drop tanks of Agent Orange onto them? Hardly. The only civillian places that may have been affected would be if it was blown by the wind towards a village. Again, blame the government and war protestors for not allowing the soldiers to fight the war properly. Mistakes like these could have been avoided to a much greater degree if the proper time and effort was put into the war.


Good point. But this also further proves my point that the US is hypocritical. US politicians scold China for building the Three Gorges Dam because of its ecological impact. But the US has no problem with spraying 10% of South Vietnam (the US's former "ally") with toxic chemicals.

The truth of the matter is the US could really care less about the ecological impact of the Three Gorges Dam. They are only interested in finding a convenient excuse to prove that China is "evil" along with Iraq, Iran, North Korea.

Truth of the matter is the US is no better or worse than the countries it tries to demonize. But what is "just" is often a matter of perception. By pointing out certain facts and witholding others, public opinion of what is "just" can be manipulated by clever politicians.
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Unread postby Travis » Wed Jan 01, 2003 11:14 pm

The US didn't find out about the adverse effects of Agent Orange until veterans of the Vietnam War came up with odd symptoms and a study was done about it. The US didn't have a clue about how devastating the chemical was going to be until. I don't know anything about the Three Gorges dam, so I can't say anything about it.
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Unread postby Rhiannon » Wed Jan 01, 2003 11:54 pm

Title 22 of the US Code, Section 2656(d): wrote: :arrow: The term "terrorism" means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against
noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience.

:arrow: The term "international terrorism" means terrorism involving the territory or the citizens of more than
one country.

:arrow: The term "terrorist group" means any group that practices, or has significant subgroups that practice,
international terrorism.



The US is the only state on record to have been condemned by the World Court for international terrorism.

The US used Depleted Uranium bombs in Iraq during the Gulf war, causing birth defects and childhood death to this day (not to mention the power our economic sanctions hold over their lives).

School of the Americas (WHISC) is a terrorist training camp.

US Federal Law permits the US Military and DoD to use any biological or chemical agents on US citizens without knowledge or consent.

The USA supports the Columbian army, which in turn terrorizes its civilians.

The USA in 99 attacked civilian water and energy supplies in Yugoslavia which they deemed, in PR, as military targets.

Japan, Vietnam, Indochina, Indonesia, and East Timor are only further examples.

Terrorism is a political and military tool. Not a spawn of evil that "good nations" know nothing about and "bad nations" delight in.
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Unread postby Mu Shu » Thu Jan 02, 2003 12:02 am

Taishi Ci wrote:The US didn't find out about the adverse effects of Agent Orange until veterans of the Vietnam War came up with odd symptoms and a study was done about it. The US didn't have a clue about how devastating the chemical was going to be until. I don't know anything about the Three Gorges dam, so I can't say anything about it.


Common sense says that Agent Orange is no ordinary herbicide. Ordinary herbicides are not able to clear dense jungle foliage. Obviously Agent Orange is far more toxic. This is common sense. No studies are needed.
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Unread postby Travis » Thu Jan 02, 2003 12:10 am

I can't debate 4 people at once. I concede here.
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