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Is it ok or not?

Other (please explain)
Total votes : 148

Unread postby LKS » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:27 pm

The bible was compiled from the various texts and verbal teachings of the early chuch at the council of Nicene , now that was some 2000 years ago , science in its form today did not exist so of course the bible did not explicitly say that a single cell gamite or what not is a baby.

The tradition of the catholic church that is the apostolic tradition , that all popes are direct descendents and through the holy spirit are connected to the first apostles , makes it possible for hte papcy to today cite the catholic teachings on modern problems ,as they have done and as i have explained on abortion.

So yes i accept it and if i am close minded that is your opinion , you have a right to it and i have a right to my beliefs and we shall leave it at that.
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Unread postby Xiao Gui » Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:27 pm

On the topic of religion and abortion, the pro-life have often use adoption as 'a way out' for pregnent women. Personally, I think that's rather single minded, concidering the various complication... but then this suggestion is a really good idea.

Every sexually active woman today should be aware that she can place a child up for adoption with a family of her choosing and have lifelong, ongoing contact with her child. These adoptions are called "open adoptions," but here's hoping that one day they're known simply as "adoptions," because it's how all adoptions ought to be done.

You can read more about open adoption at www.openadopt.org, the website of Open Adoption and Family Services, the agency that pioneered the open-adoption concept. They also brought my son's two dads and his birthmom together. And we're still together, all four of us.

Coming from Dan Savage, this is rather tonque in cheek. A lot of same-sex couples are actively seeking adoption and multi-parents family provides the child with planty of emotional and finacial support. Problem is that the same folks who advoate for pro-life are often also against same-sex relationships. By advocating adoption as a religious pro-lifer, how is supporting unconventional family set-up consistent with the religious stance? Or are the different moral issues are on a hierarchy, so it's okay to have same sex family as long as a fetus is saved?
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Re: Abortion

Unread postby SunXia » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:36 pm

I thought I would resurrect this old topic as I think this is quite relevant to today. Recently, the Republic of Ireland voted to make abortion legal.

I was interested to go through old posts and to see my opinion on the matter and to see ifit had changed over the years.

SunXia, Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:13 pm wrote:I am pro-choice!
It is a person's choice whether or not they want to have that child...I probably could never have an abortion but I know I could never condemn anyone that did!! It isn't my place to judge others!!

There were times when my catholic background controlled a lot of what I felt but I'm proud to say that my stance hasn't changed in the...wow 13 years since I typed that post. In fact, I am much more firmly held in that belief now.

A few years ago, there was a young woman at university here, her protection failed and she ended up pregnant. Wanting to complete university, she ordered a pill to cause a miscarriage online. She confided in her "friend" about the situation and with Abortion being illegal in Northern Ireland, her "friend" reported her to the police and this woman now has a criminal record. For choosing to complete university over a child. For being unable to afford the trip to England to get it sorted there.

Northern Ireland is the only place that does not allow abortion and religious fundamentalists, ie DUP refuse to allow it to be even considered for a referendum despite marches and polls to the contrary. I see people shrugging saying its a devolved issue and its from people who do not understand the situation in Northern Ireland. They do not understand that people have been polarised here on sectarian grounds. Often people who support choice, will vote for these people because they fear a "Catholic" or "Nationalist" majority or the opposite, because they have been taught from a young age that they will be suppressed and victimised.

There is a Petition of Concern here because of power sharing that is was always intended to stop legislation being introduced that might victimise a group of people (like Civil Rights Issues that led to The Troubles) and the DUP abuse that repeatedly when Equal Marriage and Abortion victimises nobody. IF you don't want an Abortion then don't have an abortion. If you don't believe homosexual people should get married then don't marry a person of the same sex. Have no problem with that. But when you force your beliefs on others, THAT I have a problem with.

"Just give it up for adoption." Man I hate this argument. Its flawed in so many ways, a often used by people who have never ever had issues with their Reproductive systems. Pregnancy can cause long term conditions that people should never be forced into if they don't want to. I suffer horribly with reproductive issues. It has now caused damage to the nerves and my lower spine that deals with my pelvic region. If someone wants to avoid stuff like this, go ahead by all means your health is your wealth.

"Just use protection." By all means yes teach people to be responsible with their bodies. Sexual Health is important. However, how I was taught in school was taught all the contraception available. THEN my teacher stood there in front of 25-30 seventeen year old girls and said that we should NEVER consider doing anything but Family Planning. the others were disgusting and we would burn in hell. How would we like to get married and discover our husbands penis had been in another woman before us. We don't want to be "used goods" now did we. For a start, 17 is too old to be only learning about contraception. Secondly, how dare someone stand there and say those things to a group of girls who are confused enough about life as it is. There is literally so much confusion over the matter that asking for contraception becomes embarrassing and "dirty".

Hell, I remember a flatmate in first year uni lost her virginity and didn't know what to do. I got straight to the point asked if she had used protection, she couldn't remember. Took me a while to get it out of her, she was too busy crying over being so disgusting a human being, daring to have sex. There was not chance of me getting her to a pharmacist so I took the hit and went for her. Sat there being asked questions about protection and how long ago was it etc and paid for the pill and gave it to her. Its never as simple as just use protection. Especially with a background where you are taught that you are damaged goods and worthless for even engaging in sex. Its immoral to treat people like that.

And besides that, contraception can fail. Condoms can split, or be ripped accidentally without people knowing. Or hell, unknowing people who are unknowingly in dangerous relationships and people prick condoms to ensure they fail. Hell, stress levels can affect those that are in pill form or even other illnesses. Its never as simple as "just use protection" for many.

Sex predates religion. Out bodies were tuned for it in evolution long before people started creating mythologies to help guide them on "righteous" paths, often bloody paths. People have a right to their own bodies and should be allowed to decide what they want to put their bodies through. Sorry but parasitic cells/embryos (Baby is a stage of development that happens after birth of a viable fetus) should not get to decide how a person lives.

Nobody in their right mind is Pro-Abortion, nobody wants to get up and get pregnant so they can hurt a bit after the procedure. People are Pro-Choice. Pro the ability to decide if they want to bring up a child. Pro the ability to decide if they want to cause themselves long term health difficulties by continuing pregnancy. Especially in today's climate where the people who are meant to teach you how to protect yourself don't do that job on a neutral, informative front at an adequate age.
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Re: Abortion

Unread postby Qin Feng » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:45 pm

I am pro choice. Having a child is a serious issue, and it doesn't seem like the best of ideas to force anyone to have one, especially if they don't want it. However I don't think it should be encouraged. The general population is aging and we need more births, not less!
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Re: Abortion

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:52 am

Huh. I don't think I ever responded to this one.

I would say that I am pro-life but pragmatic. Unborn babies are genetically-unique human beings and have personality even before they are born; and I don't see much relevant moral difference, in an absolute sense, between deliberately aborting a pregnancy and committing infanticide. I used to be much more equivocal on this point, but what really changed my mind wasn't any religious teaching or any scientific finding, but instead seeing my unborn daughter in ultrasound. It really emotionally affected me.

It also affected my politics... to a point. I never joined the GOP and never will. I voted for a small pro-life third party (American Solidarity Party) for president in 2016, but the ridiculous amount of infighting and generally pro-war attitudes there disillusioned me to no end. And two of the Democrats for Life in Congress (Joe Manchin and Joe Donnelly) voted for the war in Yemen that's starving to death 5 million children; they're just as bad as Republicans on that score. So nope, abortion actually doesn't really have that big an influence on my party politics. Single-issue voting is moronic.

In terms of policy, I still think legal restrictions on abortion are necessary, but to get the best outcomes with regard to low abortion rates (like those seen in Poland, Germany, Austria, Netherlands, Switzerland, Costa Rica, Venezuela and so on), I think I prefer a continental European model that combines hard legal late-term abortion restrictions with a generous social safety net and single-payer healthcare for pregnant women and new mothers. Unfortunately, this is not a policy that is seen in very many Eastern Orthodox countries (with the exceptions of Syria and Cyprus), and even there it doesn't seem to produce the desired outcomes.
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