2020 US Presidential Election Speculation

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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Hansheng » Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:51 am

So first, of all, observing a word/tweet/statement is racist is not simply throwing an insult at another individual.

You're kidding right? Of course it is.
You're not the arbiter that all called out statements are racist (or not racist) nor on the moral character of 'most Americans'.

Kettle meet pot! Perhaps you'd care to explain what makes you an arbiter of such?
No, it has not been going on 'a long time'. Americans, especially white Americans, had virtual carte blanche to either be outright racist, dismiss claims of racism, or otherwise hide racist sentiments behind other dressings for quite some time and this continued until recently.

I get that you want to demonize Americans but seriously, this is silly. The political left make all these claims of racism, behind every nook and cranny, without any substance to them and expects everyone to comply to their demands. Its just bullying, nothing more.
Accountability should increase, not decease.

For what, precisely? The injustices of America's past? Sorry, no, I'm responsible for my actions not my anyone else's. And what would that look like in practice, hmm? Am I expected to delegate power and influence to the democratic party, that bastion of moral integrity (ha!)? If that's the game I would suggest a new playbook, it didn't work in 2016 and it isn't going to again.
I've read your post, many times actually. The problem is its largely barren of substance other than 'he's not racist because its not true'. Which is funny, because the post is bereft entirely of any actual dissection/deconstruction of what was said (or the context/pattern from which it comes) and instead only reeks of 'its simply not true because the words are meaningless now'.

When radicals like AOC are labeling the likes of Nancy Pelosi racist (!) yeah, its become pretty meaningless. I get it, I know it must be incredibly frustrating for them to be striped of their favorite rhetorical weapon but that's what happens when you act irresponsibly.
The idea the white right doesn't see everything in society through the lens of their identity politics does is absurd.

Again, you completely misunderstand the political right! We really don't want to have anything to do with radicalized identity politics. Seriously! That's what the political left does, not us. We don't share the same worldview.
Additionally, you don't get to ignore complaints of marginalized majority because you decide the way they view the world is incorrect.

Come up with some legitimate complaints rather than, for example, complaining about the American flag on some Nike's and we can talk.
The left is going to lose 2020 regardless, but this idea that these four women of color are really radical is disconnected with a lot of reality. Sure, they're not the middle-ground, by definition, but that they're ideology is not shared by large swathes of the population is simply untrue.

AOC wants to do away with airplanes and hamburgers! By all means though, prop her and her comrades up as representative of large swaths of the democratic party. That's exactly what Trumps tweets were designed to do after all, tether them all together. After 2020 that wing of the democratic party will be thoroughly marginalized from mainstream politics.
But what I am impressed with is that you, and other mainstream Republicans, didn't even engage in the verbal and logical gynamistics that you typically do in trying to take a blatantly racist statement and argue some nonsense that he was 'misunderstood' or 'the media spun it wrong' etc

You still haven't answered my question. If you're going to label us racists no matter what we do (which you will), why would any of us care about such accusations? We know the game, the political left demonizes Americans then claims for themselves a moral soapbox to stand on to feel superior. So why bother?
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:32 am

Hansheng wrote:You're kidding right? Of course it is.


I am not kidding. Calling someone a racist, in our society, certainly is an accusation carrying with it moral condemnation (as it should be). But it is not only that. You're treating it as nothing more than calling someone a 'b****'. But it is much more than that. People, comments, policies, institutions etcs can be racist and it is not simply an 'insult' but a judgement based on an analysis of what they are, what they do, who they affect, and in what context they occur/exist.

Kettle meet pot! Perhaps you'd care to explain what makes you an arbiter of such?


I'm certainly not, nor have I made any grandiose claims such as you, made any broad generalizations such as you, or reached any vast conclusions such as you. I am not such an arbiter, we make these decisions as a society through debate and (hopefully) analysis. I'm very willing to engage in a deconstruction, should you wish, of the President's comments today, who they are aimed at, and who they appeal to. From that, we (and by extension society) can engage in a conversation about whether a particular comment satisfies the definition of a racist comment.

I get that you want to demonize Americans but seriously, this is silly. .


I don't wish to demonize Americans in the slightest, being one myself. I'm also just not afraid to confront that we as Americans dont have some squeaky clean past (or present), that we should be honest about our actions in the past and accountable for our actions going forwards, that we have enshrined racist legislation often, and that racism is ugly and still exists within the borders and institutions of our country. That isn't demonization, that's just being honest. Nor is this silly, the actions of our past are well documented. We didn't just emerge in the 90's in some post-racial harmonious utopia.

The political left make all these claims of racism, behind every nook and cranny, without any substance to them and expects everyone to comply to their demands


Aaand the political right makes all these claims of persecution, fear, paranoia, conspiracy, etc behind every nook and cranny, without any substance to them and expects everyone to comply to their demands else be accused of not 'loving ones country', 'hating ones country' or other some other anti-american hysteric.

Please.


Its just bullying, nothing more.


From a supporter of a US president who has made it his calling card to bully people, on a sequence of days where he has accused four women of color of 'hating their country' because they don't agree with him, told them to 'go back' where they came from, it is rich to see you worry about bullying. very rich.

For what, precisely? The injustices of America's past? Sorry, no, I'm responsible for my actions not my anyone else's.


I don't hold you, or myself accountable for the actions of America's past, no. However, I do recognize the the injustices of America's past and the continued effect they've caused over time (without abatement). So no, I mostly meant accountability for our words and actions now.

And what would that look like in practice, hmm? Am I expected to delegate power and influence to the democratic party, that bastion of moral integrity (ha!)? If that's the game I would suggest a new playbook, it didn't work in 2016 and it isn't going to again.


Well that a going a little off the beaten path of where are argument is. I was suggesting we hold people accountable for what they do and say right now. For instance if someone tweets some racist stuff, we should hold them accountable for it. And if you defend a racist, I think we should hold you accountable for it. Even just being honest about it is a form of accountability for starters.

When radicals like AOC are labeling the likes of Nancy Pelosi racist (!) yeah, its become pretty meaningless. I get it, I know it must be incredibly frustrating for them to be striped of their favorite rhetorical weapon but that's what happens when you act irresponsibly.


Once again you skip around the subject about whether the Presidents rhetoric in the last few days (and months) is patently racist. I continue to entreaty with you to actually engage in a meaningful debate about it, but you're biggest retort is/was simply that the accusation wasn't worth discussing. Now you're harping on the fact that in-fighting between party members somehow is more relevant to the topic at hand. When you want to actually discuss the subject instead of this handwringing you seem to enjoy, I'm available.

Again, you completely misunderstand the political right! We really don't want to have anything to do with radicalized identity politics. Seriously! That's what the political left does, not us. We don't share the same worldview.


Lol, its all big misunderstanding! Its their fault, not ours! Look, I'm the first to think that identity politics is not something I'm really into, but to accuse one side of engaging in it and not the other at this point in our political climate is delusional and absurd. The white right engages in identity politics so hard it isn't even funny.


Come up with some legitimate complaints rather than, for example, complaining about the American flag on some Nike's and we can talk.


First of all, marginalized communities have have legitimate complaints since the inception of America and they continue to do so. I think trying to act like marginalized communities in America don't suffer a number of injustices (many deadly) is the height of arrogance or delusion. I've not brought up any American flag on a shoe (thanks for inserting an argument I didn't make) but I certainly did bring up the racist tweets issued by our commander in chief and I've tried to talk to you about those..but thats not what you're here to defend right? You're just here to say its a non-starter right? Racism doesn't exist right? Move along now.

AOC wants to do away with airplanes and hamburgers!


I hope this is some nonsensical rightwing tongue in cheek joke. Otherwise it's a sad indication of where you get your news and who you choose to believe, AOC's Green New Deal does not intend to strictly get rid of air travel

By all means though, prop her and her comrades up as representative of large swaths of the democratic party. That's exactly what Trumps tweets were designed to do after all, tether them all together. After 2020 that wing of the democratic party will be thoroughly marginalized from mainstream politics.


Lets say, in arguendo, that Trump meant to accomplish what you think he meant to accomplish with his tweets. In no way does that make the content of his tweets not racist nor does his goal justify his means. You keep saying 'this is what his tweets were aimed at' (paraphrasing) but you still havent even mentioned an opinion on whether the language of the tweets was inherently racist.


You still haven't answered my question. If you're going to label us racists no matter what we do (which you will), why would any of us care about such accusations? We know the game, the political left demonizes Americans then claims for themselves a moral soapbox to stand on to feel superior. So why bother?


First of all, I don't know who you are. I don't consider you a political front (this seems to be something you feel very comfortable taking on and attributing to other people though). I'm not going to call you racist unless you say or condone something racist. I expect every American to call out other American who participate in, condone (explicitly or implicitly), or sit idlely by while others engage in racist behavior. This boring, paranoid, and intellectually lazy-approach to the subject is counter-intuitive. Why should you care about being labeled a racist? Because you likely don't want to be considered a racist by your peers, by your communities and by your constituents. Your excuse-breeding theory taken to its logical end is..why bother worrying at all? Why worry if you're associated with white supremacists and neo-nazis (after all the dastardly ol lefties will only call us so anyway!)? Why worry whether or not we condone or encourage misogyny, fear, or xenophobia (after all, the lefts gonna throw it at us anyway!)

I'm sorry, if that's your argument that's fairly weak and that is on you. It basically carves out a 'i never have to deal with this subject earnestly' card because you've unilaterally determined the entire conversation is pointless and a 'game'. Which is sad, because this affects real people's lives and isn't just a 'game'. And, at the end of the day, if that truly is your belief I find it doubtful you'd waste time here defending it so...whats it matter anyway right? Let the man tweet all the racist stuff he wants right?
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Hansheng » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:49 am

Aaand the political right makes all these claims of persecution, fear, paranoia, conspiracy, etc behind every nook and cranny, without any substance to them.

Really?
It is depressing how, in modern day, how racism and misogyny is so unimportant to large swathes of the population in western countries.

Now, I didn't have to go very far to find such hateful comments did I. Are you saying Dong's comment isn't representative of leftist rhetoric in general?
From a supporter of a US president who has made it his calling card to bully people, on a sequence of days where he has accused four women of color of 'hating their country' because they don't agree with him, told them to 'go back' where they came from, it is rich to see you worry about bullying. very rich.

Yet again, you misunderstand the dynamics at play. Trump absolutely is a bully and is doing exactly what we put him in office to do, to bully the lesser bullies on the political left. He is our attack dog. Reprisal however is not hypocrisy. If I am punched in the face I have every right to punch back. We didn't start this fight but you can be assured we will finish it on election day when the radical leftists are abjured from the political stage.
From a supporter of a US president who has made it his calling card to bully people, on a sequence of days where he has accused four women of color of 'hating their country' because they don't agree with him, told them to 'go back' where they came from, it is rich to see you worry about bullying.

More like because their policies are atrocious and would bankrupt the country, and it has nothing to do with their race. Again, you try to slap on the racist label for absolutely nothing. Nobody cares about their race.
Once again you skip around the subject about whether the Presidents rhetoric in the last few days (and months) is patently racist

You forgot to add 'in my opinion'. You're welcome to it of course but that doesn't make it true. It also doesn't mean anyone has to take it seriously. The political left and their allies in the media have been droning on about have racist the president supposedly is, its nothing new, but it has gotten old.
I continue to entreaty with you to actually engage in a meaningful debate about it, but you're biggest retort is/was simply that the accusation wasn't worth discussing.

Correct, if nobody takes the accusation seriously then what would be the point?
Now you're harping on the fact that in-fighting between party members somehow is more relevant to the topic at hand.

The tweet in question seems to have been designed to get the democrats to circle the wagons and unite behind the far leftists. He implied exactly that this morning when he tweeted "Omar is polling at 8%, Cortez at 21%. Nancy Pelosi tried to push them away, but now they are forever wedded to the Democrat Party. See you in 2020!". Certainly sounds intentional to me! At any rate, the democrats did exactly what Trump himself said he wanted. You can't argue with results.
The white right engages in identity politics so hard it isn't even funny.

No they don't, not willingly. We want a society where everyone is equal, full stop. Its the left that gins up racial hatred to score political points and yes, the right frequently fall into that particular trap. Not so much anymore though, for example, only 4 republicans voted condemn Trump today. The whole thing was pure politics and people are fast waking up to it.
First of all, marginalized communities have have legitimate complaints

If you can come up with something more substantial than a presidential tweet and doesn't crumble under scrutiny then we can talk.
AOC's Green New Deal does not intend to strictly get rid of air travel

AOC's ridiculous proposition is the joke. The joke will be on the democrats when they are swept from power.
I expect every American to call out other American who participate in, condone (explicitly or implicitly), or sit idlely by while others engage in racist behavior.

Like using racist terms such as the "white right" for example?
Even just being honest about it is a form of accountability for starters.

For starters? Of course it doesn't end there now does it? And who exactly is going to determine what is and isn't racist? And who decides those criteria? By consensus? Not going to happen, not in this charged political environment.
It basically carves out a 'i never have to deal with this subject earnestly' card because you've unilaterally determined the entire conversation is pointless and a 'game'.

Correct, I don't have to accept the disingenuous accusations of the political left. I'm under no obligation to take any of it seriously.
Why should you care about being labeled a racist? Because you likely don't want to be considered a racist by your peers, by your communities and by your constituents.

Labeled by who? For what precisely? This is the game of the political left, to shame their political opponents into submission. Sorry, not going to work anymore.
Your excuse-breeding theory taken to its logical end is..why bother worrying at all? Why worry if you're associated with white supremacists and neo-nazis (after all the dastardly ol lefties will only call us so anyway!)? Why worry whether or not we condone or encourage misogyny, fear, or xenophobia (after all, the lefts gonna throw it at us anyway!)

Again you missed my point. You seem to not understand that most Americans simply don't care about these accusations because the vast majority of the time they are untrue. By itself an accusation is nothing. If its not true none of its going to stick. So I ask again, if its not true why should anyone care? Why should anyone allow themselves to be put to shame in this manor?
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:05 am

Welcome Hansheng to the forum, hope you enjoy yourself.

This is the part that trips up many of those on the political left, they don't understand the American public. Americans by and large are a warm, friendly generous lot but you don't get to constantly denigrate them as racist and misogynistic and not expect a response in return.


Well there were two massive assumptions about me in your opening post, I'll see if you can work out which one you got very wrong.

I didn't mention the American public in that part of the post. I was lampooning Trump hypocritical logic of "you dislike America, get out" while being of immigrant family who dislikes what America had become. Leaving aside that it was racist in way it was (as defined by, well normal standards across the west, it seems agreed upon where I live that it was highly racist and part of a pattern of racism).

Maybe as someone who isn't used to my thinking, that didn't come across but it is pity you didn't ask before jumping in

Personally, I'm alright with people from left and right going "I dislike the route the country has taken" and wanting to change it. I have never used the term traitor, disloyal, get out for figures who want to reform the country or turn it back (though I may well disagree with them). What I do object to is the "if they disagree, they...." followed up by traitors, get out, disloyalty and so on. That is bullying and abusive.

It would be great if US elected again figures that represented the US kindness and warmth as they once did. Electing figures like Trump tarnishes that image as much as Charlottesville and the infamously racist US (though far from only one with that problem) justice system does.

Not quite. Its the accusations of racism and misogyny that fall flat. Like any other insult it only works if there is some truth to it but by and large those isms don't describe the vast majority of Americans. Not even by stretching the definition of those words into meaninglessness does it work, not anymore. That's why Trump was elected in the first place, his presidency is a reprisal for all that hateful rhetoric.


Outside the US, Trump is viewed as a racist and misogynist so it isn't great for US world appeal. Maybe in parts of US, Trump's repeated actions aren't seen as that but they seem cut off in that attitude from the west which is... concerning.

You battle back against hateful rhetoric by hiring a man known for hateful rhetoric?

See what I mean? This has been going on a long time and it shows no sigh of letting up. What's changed is that nobody cares about the insults anymore because, like I said, its not true. Most Americans are not malicious at heart.


Note I said the west. Not America. You guys are, I hope you would agree, not the sole country in the west. This is a western problem.

Now, I didn't have to go very far to find such hateful comments did I. Are you saying Dong's comment isn't representative of leftist rhetoric in general?


You haven't an idea of my views on the left in other places clearly (so another assumption), your also making assumptions about my views on such people. Your not coming across as very good at this assumption lark, are you usually better at it?

Like using racist terms such as the "white right" for example?


In politics (along with white left, BME right, BME left, white van man, liberal left) is used in my expirence. I could see the way it could be abused and there are arguments about such idea's but isn't seen as racist
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:50 am

Hansheng wrote:Really?


Yes. All the time, from day one. Whether it be attempting to scare Americans about threats at the border, birther movement, insinuating that after an election all guns would be seized, or perpetrating a number of other falsehoods...fear-mongering is a top and common tactic by Trump and the right.

Now, I didn't have to go very far to find such hateful comments did I. Are you saying Dong's comment isn't representative of leftist rhetoric in general?


Dong's comment is neither leftist nor hateful. It is a lamentation and observation and recently borne out by the voters choices and rhetoric in both countries. Do you believe that everything one says that is negative about ones country/society is inherently hateful? More the to the point, even if it were (which it isn't), it doesn't mean its unfounded.

Yet again, you misunderstand the dynamics at play. Trump absolutely is a bully and is doing exactly what we put him in office to do, to bully the lesser bullies on the political left. He is our attack dog. Reprisal however is not hypocrisy. If I am punched in the face I have every right to punch back. We didn't start this fight but you can be assured we will finish it on election day when the radical leftists are abjured from the political stage.


I don't misunderstand the dyanamics at all, especially not now with this post. I understand you voted in a racist demagogue to attack and bully anyone who disagrees with him and his/your agenda. Your unwillingness to have him (or your party) have any accountability for their actions and to play the victim (grand irony that, in this context) makes clear you will justify and rationalize any poor/illegal/despicable actions on his behalf as 'reprisals' of some imagined injury. Keep beating your chest while you head is in the sand, your call.


More like because their policies are atrocious and would bankrupt the country, and it has nothing to do with their race. Again, you try to slap on the racist label for absolutely nothing. Nobody cares about their race.


I would give your words an iota of more weight had..i don't know..they tracked at all with his words and actions. Putting aside my opinion that your description of 'their' policies is exactly how I'd describe Trump's policies, the reality is that Trump took to social media (as well as the white house) and attacked these women not on their policies (despite what he followed up with later) but on who they were. Specifically, he insinuated that these women (three natural born U.S. citizens ) 'go back' to their home countries. That is not a policy, and a long-standing racist trope. It isn't something that used against whites. So if he/you don't care about race, that wouldn't be a comment. The rest of his original salvo also did not question their policies..but challenges and questions their love for their country. Again, classic faux-patriotism rearing its head for conservatives (we dont share your policies or your critical of us, look everyone they hate our country!)

Sorry, Trump is notorious for launching ad-hominem attacks at everyone, especially women and individuals of color. He often attacks individuals for their physical appearance. To insinuate that these tweets were focused not at all on race, that correctly labeling them as racist was for 'absolutely nothing', or that these were aimed at policies first and foremost is intellectually dishonest. If that is your stance I'm unsure if you've simply not read the content, refuse to engage with it and just give a rubber stamp of approval, or simply are patently comfortable around racist language.

You forgot to add 'in my opinion'. You're welcome to it of course but that doesn't make it true. It also doesn't mean anyone has to take it seriously. The political left and their allies in the media have been droning on about have racist the president supposedly is, its nothing new, but it has gotten old.


I'm not sure you're reading that sentence correctly or just circularly regurgitating your new favorite party line. 'in my opinion is not required because I was not making a statement about whether his words were racist (though they are). I was noting that you dance around the subject about whether they are and refuse to engage with the source material.

Correct, if nobody takes the accusation seriously then what would be the point?


Thus far, in this conversation of four individuals, you are only one who is apathetic about whether the president's comments were racist/not racist. So it may be true that you don't care about whether he has said racist things or not, but we obviously do. You can extrapolate that outwards to society as well. Once again, you haven't proven anything here except for the fact that you've carved out this nonsensical "excuse" to not engage with whether or not those you've chosen to support have said a racist thing by futilely attempting to trivialize the charge. But, as we've seen here in this conversation, that's only happening here...because of you.

The tweet in question seems to have been designed to get the democrats to circle the wagons and unite behind the far leftists. He implied exactly that this morning when he tweeted "Omar is polling at 8%, Cortez at 21%. Nancy Pelosi tried to push them away, but now they are forever wedded to the Democrat Party. See you in 2020!". Certainly sounds intentional to me! At any rate, the democrats did exactly what Trump himself said he wanted. You can't argue with results.


Hey you finally just engaged with some source material...just not the part...actually in question. And no, the results don't justify the end. Saying reprehensible racist comments shouldn't be rationalized as acceptable because it achieves a political goal..or well...in my opinion I don't think that is acceptable, but you seem to be moving very close to arguing just that. Have fun with that and the bed company that invites. Oh, and if you want to discuss the actual tweets in question, and not the follow-up rants let me know.

No they don't, not willingly. We want a society where everyone is equal, full stop. Its the left that gins up racial hatred to score political points and yes, the right frequently fall into that particular trap. Not so much anymore though, for example, only 4 republicans voted condemn Trump today. The whole thing was pure politics and people are fast waking up to it.


:roll: Right right, victims again. The white right never engages in politics or plays on patriotism to score easy political points. Sure sure. Don't forget to come up for air from the sand.


If you can come up with something more substantial than a presidential tweet and doesn't crumble under scrutiny then we can talk.


A) Are you arguing that racism doesn't exist? That marginalized communities don't have heightened instances of police violence? That since the end of the civil war there haven't been systemic racist legislation and institutions? That marginalized communities haven't been subjected to disenfranchisement over the years? I'm not going to provide a history lesson of the racial/religious/etc injustices perpetrated in our country over the years, the rise again of the white right, or a status update on the minorities in this country. However, if you are insinuating marginalized communities are equally enfranchised or treated in comparison to the majority in all the different respects you are simply either detached from reality or have a political bias so strong you refuse to see anything past your goal.
B) Crumble under scrutiny? You haven't scrutinized the tweet at all..you've danced around it constantly making sure not to even glance its way. lol scrutiny.

AOC's ridiculous proposition is the joke. The joke will be on the democrats when they are swept from power.


Thanks for sidestepping what I said. You either actually didn't read up on it, read incorrect news, or just continue to voluntarily spit out falsehoods pursuant to your goals. And as to the rest..ok? Your strange declarations of impending victory are starting to sound like some scary zealot anticipating the coming. You're free to calm down and actually engage in the subject matter.

Like using racist terms such as the "white right" for example?


If you believed that to be a racist term, sure. I'm happy to have a discussion about that. I definitely don't think that qualifies as such considering who Trump plays to, the fact that whites are not marginalized or disenfranchised minority in this country, and his messages correspond with the recent rise in white nationalism.

Also I love your objection to describing an aspect of the conservative right as the 'white right', but 'go back' is perfectly acceptable.

For starters? Of course it doesn't end there now does it? And who exactly is going to determine what is and isn't racist? And who decides those criteria? By consensus? Not going to happen, not in this charged political environment.


Yes, for starters. We likely can't expect more without some intellectual honestly. And no, I'd obviously like to see voters and our institutions hold people accountable for words in more demonstrative ways. Who decides what is racist? We and logic do. You know who does not get to decide what is and isn't racist?the accused Turns out most people spewing racist and vile vitriol are not going to own as such.

Correct, I don't have to accept the disingenuous accusations of the political left. I'm under no obligation to take any of it seriously.


No no, that isn't a correct summation. As it appears you're the only arbiter on what is and is not a sincere accusation of racism, and you've concluded that all accusations from 'the political left' (no idea how wide and far that net is with you) are disingenuous thus you've decided you do not have engage in substantive analysis of anything at all, ever, so long as you deem it unnecessary. Which is super convenient for you, right? You can support nearly anyone you want and those people can do and say anything they want, and you get to ignore any of the criticism of them and don't have engage in any actual objective analysis or review of it right? Easy peasy. Now, of course, that reeks of self-serving bias and either intellectual laziness or intellectual dishonesty, but lets not worry about that stuff it just gets in the way.

Labeled by who? For what precisely? This is the game of the political left, to shame their political opponents into submission. Sorry, not going to work anymore.


:lol: :roll: Again, the irony is too rich. You're defending a man who makes his living by attempting to bully and shame individuals into doing what he wants. And his political foes (in this case, these four women of color) are saying 'sorry trump, not going to work anymore'!! So rich! In fact, whats also rich is that not only does Trump do this to his political opponents on the other side of the isle..he does this to anyone within his own party who does not move in lock-step with him. So on a day (or past couple of days) in which the president has attempted to shame congresswomen into backing down by attempting to shame them for not "loving their country" (or any of the other malign comments he made towards them) you tell me shaming is the game of "the political left". Rich! And before you whip out that worn-excuse of 'well he's doing what hired him for', lets not forget that it isn't just Trump. Those Republicans who have come out in support of this comments (read: Graham, McConnell, and quite a few others) engaged in the same rhetoric. So you'll have to put that card back in your pocket. Look, at the minimum, you could attempt to have the decency to try and pretend you attempted to view this in an objective manner and try to argue that both parties engage in these absurd tactics.

But no..just like you believe that "the political left" attempts to "demonize the american public" you've demonized "the political left" as the boogie-man in the room and all others are victims.

Again you missed my point. You seem to not understand that most Americans simply don't care about these accusations because the vast majority of the time they are untrue. By itself an accusation is nothing. If its not true none of its going to stick. So I ask again, if its not true why should anyone care? Why should anyone allow themselves to be put to shame in this manor?


I haven't missed your point at all, your point is just meaningless. First you're assuming most americans dont care, which is at best a baseless generalization. Second, you're assuming that they don't care solely because they're untrue. That isn't a logical conclusion. In the past, people have said tremendously racist/bigoted/homophobic/misogynistic/and religiously insensitive things and there wasn't a huge uproar..but it didn't mean the content not racist/bigoted/homophobic/ etc. Whether something is truly racist is not proven by merely whether there is a media uproar or whether the majority (often whom it is not directed at or has any impact on) is upset. If that is your barometer for determining what is and is not racist...thats a scary thought.

If five patrons are in a bar, and one of them says something obviously racist, and the other four don't care because they do not think it as racist...that doesn't mean it isn't racist. It simply means you have four people who are wrong or unwilling to engage in a conservation about the fifth person's statement.
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:38 am

I'm not the hard left, on most social issues I identify with the religious right. However videos of this rally sent shivers down my spine. There is no defence for this.
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby PeanutButterToast » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:42 pm

Sun Fin wrote:I'm not the hard left, on most social issues I identify with the religious right. However videos of this rally sent shivers down my spine. There is no defence for this.


Agreed.

I admit I haven't been paying attention to politics until now, but I'm catching up. Tired of keeping my head in the sand at this point.
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Hansheng » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:25 am

Outside the US, Trump is viewed as a racist and misogynist so it isn't great for US world appeal. Maybe in parts of US, Trump's repeated actions aren't seen as that but they seem cut off in that attitude from the west which is... concerning.

The thing to remember about Trump is that he is an attack dog. Much of the political right in the US feel unjustifiably put upon by the left wing. It was they who sent Trump to Washington as a form of protest and push-back against policies and rhetoric that are anathema to us. He has thus far been wildly successful at representing our interests. If the price is a little loss of "world appeal", then that's a pretty small price.
You battle back against hateful rhetoric by hiring a man known for hateful rhetoric?

You can fight fire with fire, yes, absolutely. As i said before, reprisal is not hypocrisy. Trump is our reprisal for all the hateful rhetoric from the left. He is the bully we have employed to destroy those who have bullied us and has been stunningly successful at it. He is maneuvering the democratic party toward a catastrophic defeat.
Note I said the west. Not America. You guys are, I hope you would agree, not the sole country in the west. This is a western problem.

It does seem like muck of the west is tilting toward nationalism and the right wing. I can't really say for sure to what extent, broadly speaking, this is in reaction to leftist rhetoric in countries other than the US, I think that would be an over generalization. I think a lot of it is a reaction to the failures of globalism.
You haven't an idea of my views on the left in other places clearly (so another assumption), your also making assumptions about my views on such people. Your not coming across as very good at this assumption lark, are you usually better at it?

I'm not referring to you personally, only your comment. Are you saying that a statement such as "It is depressing how, in modern day, how racism and misogyny is so unimportant to large swathes of the population in western countries" is not characteristic of the rhetoric employed by the political left? Maybe it is not in your neck of the woods but in the US it would certainly be interpreted as a very typical smear of the right because that's exactly the sort of thing that those on the left say about us all the time. That's the context within which we are operating in the US. Perhaps I should have mentioned I was referring specifically to US politics, but it didn't occur to to me, this thread is after all about the US political scene and the next US election, not that of the west generally.
As to your comment I actually half agree. Few Americans approve of actual racism or misogyny but many on the political right reject the constant drone of shaming language from the left, attempting to demonize us. There is a distinction to be made between the accusations of such and the reality. We simply don't care about the accusations anymore, they have become trivial to us. Much of the left will hate us either way, so why bother caring what they think? As far as Trump goes, as I said he is our attack dog, our instrument of revenge on the left. If our attack dog takes a rhetorical do do on the feet of the democratic establishment, well, that's what he's there for. You don't scold your attack dog for his bad behavior when his bad behavior is the point.
In politics (along with white left, BME right, BME left, white van man, liberal left) is used in my experience. I could see the way it could be abused and there are arguments about such idea's but isn't seen as racist

Those seem to be mostly terms of British use that I'm not terribly familiar with. BME right, BME left and white van man seem unsavory terms at first glance but I can't say much about them, I'm not British, I have little knowledge of the nuance of their use. Conflating the American political right with whiteness however embodies the very essence of racism, in my humble opinion. I'll have more to say on that when I get around to responding to Shikanosuke.
At any rate, thanks for your even handed comments, it nice when charged political discussions can be calmed down a bit.
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:59 pm

Hansheng wrote:The thing to remember about Trump is that he is an attack dog. Much of the political right in the US feel unjustifiably put upon by the left wing. It was they who sent Trump to Washington as a form of protest and push-back against policies and rhetoric that are anathema to us. He has thus far been wildly successful at representing our interests. If the price is a little loss of "world appeal", then that's a pretty small price.


How does pushing back and protesting have to include and how does it excuse racist or vile rhetoric? You could be an 'attack dog' without those elements, furthermore, the left feels the same way.

You can fight fire with fire, yes, absolutely. As i said before, reprisal is not hypocrisy. Trump is our reprisal for all the hateful rhetoric from the left. He is the bully we have employed to destroy those who have bullied us and has been stunningly successful at it. He is maneuvering the democratic party toward a catastrophic defeat.


Wel thats a lot of loaded words. You've refused to even define what hateful rhetoric means nor have you chosen to engage in any analysis of his rhetoric, but its all everyone else fault.

EDIT: Also, what I find interesting about your (and your party's) argument, is that this is part of a political maneuvering. I've certainly not disagreed with that. In fact, many Dems (including those denigrated) don't disagree with that. But again we come to the other question...does that matter? Does political maneuvering, even if it succeeds, justify saying racist, denigrating, and divisive things?


As to your comment I actually half agree. Few Americans approve of actual racism or misogyny but many on the political right reject the constant drone of shaming language from the left, attempting to demonize us.


Few Americans approve...yet remain silent all the the while the rhetoric continues. And the right never demonizes the left, no no..they're the pillars of the moral highground on this. They don't take the airwaves and chant 'leftie/commie/socialist/racist/antiamerican/hates their country'. They're above that entirely.


Those seem to be mostly terms of British use that I'm not terribly familiar with. BME right, BME left and white van man seem unsavory terms at first glance but I can't say much about them, I'm not British, I have little knowledge of the nuance of their use. Conflating the American political right with whiteness however embodies the very essence of racism, in my humble opinion. I'll have more to say on that when I get around to responding to Shikanosuke.


Does it now? Does conflating an individual's background with terrorism embody the essence of racism? Does implying an individual cannot perform his job because of his ethnicity embody the essence of racism? Is everyone so one-sided for you? That one side of a political side doesn't do X and the other always does X?
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:52 pm

The thing to remember about Trump is that he is an attack dog. Much of the political right in the US feel unjustifiably put upon by the left wing. It was they who sent Trump to Washington as a form of protest and push-back against policies and rhetoric that are anathema to us. He has thus far been wildly successful at representing our interests. If the price is a little loss of "world appeal", then that's a pretty small price.


There's a couple of issues I have with the attack dog argument

1) Trump was known to be a racist and a misogynist before he entered politics. While attack dog is a big part of his strategy, this isn't something that came in once he began running for office, the questionable practises and racism is part of who he is.

2) One can be an attack dog without being racist. There are all sorts of attack dogs with varied styles, one of course is entitled to go for an attack dog figure, take the costs that come with that style, but have one that is not a racist. Why then select the racist?

3) Why is racism an acceptable strategy? If racism and the hate that entails is no longer a line not to cross, what then is the new "wow that is too far"?

4) Your sort of going "Trump is justified saying racist things as our attack dog" while refusing to say which ones are racist. The only "that is racist" seems to be when Shi uses a political term so do you accept what Trump has been saying is racist?

More then a little loss, maybe "is America back to the KKK days?" and "America is a unreliable ally" can be dismissed but the price is far deeper then foreign policy and foreign image. Like the crossing lines, furthering the divisions that won't heal, damage to the institutions at home and abroad that will years to reverse, edit: the long term damage to Republican party

Some of the bits below will repeat such 4 questions, feel free to avoid answering those to avoid repeating yourself.

You can fight fire with fire, yes, absolutely. As i said before, reprisal is not hypocrisy. Trump is our reprisal for all the hateful rhetoric from the left. He is the bully we have employed to destroy those who have bullied us and has been stunningly successful at it. He is maneuvering the democratic party toward a catastrophic defeat.


Again it raises the question, why select the racist?

Why not at least aim for the same level or even be the better side? Republicans have won with plenty of decent figures who knew neo-Nazi's were bad and have one to set a shining example that it embarrass the left. I'm going to guess the deplorable sort of comment is what you mean but you could have at least aimed for that level rather then try to go far worse?

I would be surprised if the Democrats are crushed but let us say they are, at what cost would you pay for that? If the Democrats win or lose narrowly, will the price paid have been worth it? What is the line?

It does seem like muck of the west is tilting toward nationalism and the right wing. I can't really say for sure to what extent, broadly speaking, this is in reaction to leftist rhetoric in countries other than the US, I think that would be an over generalization. I think a lot of it is a reaction to the failures of globalism.


Globalism, economic crash, a left behind feeling, split between the big cities and other areas. This is far from a left only problem though (I got the impression the Republicans had similar problems which led to Trump winning)

I'm not referring to you personally, only your comment. Are you saying that a statement such as "It is depressing how, in modern day, how racism and misogyny is so unimportant to large swathes of the population in western countries" is not characteristic of the rhetoric employed by the political left? Maybe it is not in your neck of the woods but in the US it would certainly be interpreted as a very typical smear of the right because that's exactly the sort of thing that those on the left say about us all the time. That's the context within which we are operating in the US. Perhaps I should have mentioned I was referring specifically to US politics, but it didn't occur to to me, this thread is after all about the US political scene and the next US election, not that of the west generally.


Not in my expirence as a whole, one or two maybe. One of those who said rough equivalent was from the right about the left.

What the left can be here is high handed, arrogant, rude, hypocritical and dismissive. One reaction that wasn't uncommon after Brexit was the equivalent of "racist, stupid, old, working class morons", an equivalent to the deplorable I guess. Now that was unacceptable and the dismissive high-handed attitude probably did play into exactly what those people felt the "metropolitan elite" felt about them.

Not sure why the ideal response to any such attitude would be to say to the world "yep we are racist" and confirm the worst people fear

As to your comment I actually half agree. Few Americans approve of actual racism or misogyny but many on the political right reject the constant drone of shaming language from the left, attempting to demonize us. There is a distinction to be made between the accusations of such and the reality. We simply don't care about the accusations anymore, they have become trivial to us. Much of the left will hate us either way, so why bother caring what they think? As far as Trump goes, as I said he is our attack dog, our instrument of revenge on the left. If our attack dog takes a rhetorical do do on the feet of the democratic establishment, well, that's what he's there for. You don't scold your attack dog for his bad behavior when his bad behavior is the point.


Yet racist and misogynist got elected. But doing that, at the very least the voters went "well racism and misogyny isn't that important". At best. Far from the only country but that doesn't make it better

You don't have to care what the left thinks if you don't want. Or the rest of the world. Though I would usually suggest keeping an eye on what everyone else thinks to avoid a bubble. What you are responsible for is your own actions. Like electing a known misogynist and racist. That isn't the lefts fault, that is on your own choice

Your revenge damages a lot more then the left, it is very very slash and burn. You also don't need to have a racist attack dog, you can have an attack dog and one that won't cross lines

Those seem to be mostly terms of British use that I'm not terribly familiar with. BME right, BME left and white van man seem unsavory terms at first glance but I can't say much about them, I'm not British, I have little knowledge of the nuance of their use. Conflating the American political right with whiteness however embodies the very essence of racism, in my humble opinion. I'll have more to say on that when I get around to responding to Shikanosuke.


BME is black and minority ethnic. Politically, groups get segmented into types which aren't used for racism (there are a number of issues with such segments though, it can be used in very lazy fashion and lead cringe inducing writing or speeches when paper or politician is trying to appeal to a grouping for example)

I don't know what the statistics are on have the Republicans and how balanced they are in terms of gender, skin colour (also compared with rivals). I would however be very surprised if the Republicans are the only right-wing party in the west that don't have a white right grouping.
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