2020 US Presidential Election Speculation

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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Sakae Wu » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:57 am

Dong Zhou wrote:We don't like to talk about how we lost the air-war during the battle of independence, huge national embrassment, it took till WW2 for the RAF to redeem itself.

We are enjoying Trump's latest temper tantrums over here about our ambassador and May. Well I say enjoy, more a weary eye roll, sympathy for May and ignoring him so I wonder what he will try next to get attention


Apparently they were the inspiration behind his new "Space Force". They will be highly trained in the art of ramming ramparts!

But seriously, I can only sypathize with our allies overseas that have to come in contact with this guy. The number one question I get in Japan is what I think of Trump and if he will get re-elected. I've learned to start telling people I'm from Canada.

(For the record, I usually lean Republican but abstained from the last 2 elections.)
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:03 am

Sakae Wu wrote:I've learned to start telling people I'm from Canada.


Wise move. :wink:

I suspect in many ways it isn't the unpredictably, tantrums (as annoying as they may be) or the latest shock (far from the only world leader being, well, horrible or whipping things up, Trump's victory is a symbol of our times.) that annoys other leaders and diplomats. It is things like Paris agreement, Iran deal, the attacks on international institutions and his imposing tariffs rather often that I think is the heal headache.

That UK having Trump headaches right now, though Trump's tantrum played a part, is self inflicted via two acts of British treachery against our own envoy. Though in fairness to Trump, having imminent control of Downing Street and thus the UK is a master-stroke I didn't see coming
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:33 pm

With his commentsrecently regarding freshmen congresswomen needing to "go back " I'll prepare for the rush of apologists claiming that he's just tone-deaf, not racist. or some other verbal gymnastics necessary to make it sit pretty with their beliefs. It certainly doesn't seem likeRepublicans will make much effort to distance themselves from such statements.
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:06 am

Those comments seem indefensible to me. They are just straight up racist.
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:03 pm

Given Trump has built his politics on disliking what the country has become and hatred of American institutions, he can be deported first. If he is willing to hand himself in to immigration officers with the appropriate authority for his entire family to be removed as the first to go, then it is not racist and just a very very stupid policy.

Given nobody believes that he is about to order his own deportation, it is 100% racist. Unsurprising given his history. I don't expect a mass change (after all, it has happened here to both parties), there will be constant misunderstood, you misread it, not really racist, silence

It is depressing how, in modern day, how racism and misogyny is so unimportant to large swathes of the population in western countries
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:59 pm

Concur with both sentiments. It will be defended by his base, or rationalized in some way (demonstrating they're simply comfortable, at the end of the day, with a blatantly racist president so long as they like his policies and the next job report) and ignored by middle of the road Republicans.
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Hansheng » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:24 pm

Given Trump has built his politics on disliking what the country has become and hatred of American institutions, he can be deported first.

This is the part that trips up many of those on the political left, they don't understand the American public. Americans by and large are a warm, friendly generous lot but you don't get to constantly denigrate them as racist and misogynistic and not expect a response in return.
It is depressing how, in modern day, how racism and misogyny is so unimportant to large swathes of the population in western countries

Not quite. Its the accusations of racism and misogyny that fall flat. Like any other insult it only works if there is some truth to it but by and large those isms don't describe the vast majority of Americans. Not even by stretching the definition of those words into meaninglessness does it work, not anymore. That's why Trump was elected in the first place, his presidency is a reprisal for all that hateful rhetoric.
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:30 pm

And so it begins...

Hansheng wrote:This is the part that trips up many of those on the political left, they don't understand the American public. Americans by and large are a warm, friendly generous lot but you don't get to constantly denigrate them as racist and misogynistic and not expect a response in return.



The first part of your statement is a bland generality that can be applied to most people of most nations despite whether it is true or not (as an American, many aspects of American society are far from warm, generous, or friendly, to a segments of the population other than their own).

The second part is meaningless. Who is you? How are Americans denigrated and by whom...other Americans? Those outside our walls? American politics and history do literal somersaults protecting Americans from facing their own faults and weaknesses or the core sometimes of our policies and their impacts. You'll spare if, as an American, we do need to reminded that many aspects our society and history are very much racist and misogynistic and when told that I'd hope our response would be to accept and grow...not dig heels and fight.




Not quite. Its the accusations of racism and misogyny that fall flat. Like any other insult it only works if there is some truth to it but by and large those isms don't describe the vast majority of Americans. Not even by stretching the definition of those words into meaninglessness does it work, not anymore. That's why Trump was elected in the first place, his presidency is a reprisal for all that hateful rhetoric.


Well, that's a lot of conclusions not really borne out by any evidence. And like every other defender of the racism discussed here today, you haven't discussed the statements made and whether they are racist or not, but simply insinuated this is all 'politics' as usual. Further, you've attempted to devalue individuals who represent that things they see in their society are racist as engaging in 'hateful rhetoric'. This is, of course, made all the more ironic that you describe calling out someone as racist as 'hateful rhetoric' while...seemingly defending hateful rhetoric.
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Hansheng » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:46 pm

How are Americans denigrated and by whom...other Americans?

As I pointed out, someone here just did:
It is depressing how, in modern day, how racism and misogyny is so unimportant to large swathes of the population in western countries

See what I mean? This has been going on a long time and it shows no sigh of letting up. What's changed is that nobody cares about the insults anymore because, like I said, its not true. Most Americans are not malicious at heart.
And like every other defender of the racism discussed here today, you haven't discussed the statements made and whether they are racist or not, but simply insinuated this is all 'politics as usual.

You seem to have not read my post. The label you're so desperate to place on the president and myself doesn't mean anything because its simply not true. Again, nobody on my side cares about the 'isms. You're going to throw them around no matter what, so why should I care? My goodness, even AOC tried to slap the racist label on Pelosi! Its become absolutely absurd.
Further, you've attempted to devalue individuals who represent that things they see in their society are racist as engaging in 'hateful rhetoric'.

The key part here is:
things they see in their society

That's the problem right there, they see everything in society through the lens of identity politics. It is disingenuous, self serving, and yes hateful. That's why Trump attacked them, they represent aspects of the political left that much of America has come to despise. The moderate democrats are well aware of this and were trying to get the radical leftists to cool it on the hate rhetoric, but the instant Trump got involved the entire democratic party jumped to the defense of the radicals. If the democrats continue to stand by the radical fringe they will loose in 2020 and loose very badly.
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Re: 2020 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:17 am

Hansheng wrote:See what I mean? This has been going on a long time and it shows no sigh of letting up.


A) I was asking 'who' because in this context youre liberally and vaguely referring to 'you'. In this case, the tweets we're discussing today include four specific women of color..not a vague you. From you, it appears you're just attacking a general idea of accountability.
B) No, it has not been going on 'a long time'. Americans, especially white Americans, had virtual carte blanche to either be outright racist, dismiss claims of racism, or otherwise hide racist sentiments behind other dressings for quite some time and this continued until recently. Even now it is easily argued this hasn't changed very much. Finally, this should not 'let up'. Accountability should increase, not decease.

What's changed is that nobody cares about the insults anymore because, like I said, its not true. Most Americans are not malicious at heart.


So first, of all, observing a word/tweet/statement is racist is not simply throwing an insult at another individual. It is an actual observation of the content of a statement. And I like that you're last two conclusions are fairly..well unsupportable. You're not the arbiter that all called out statements are racist (or not racist) nor on the moral character of 'most Americans'.

You seem to have not read my post. The label you're so desperate to place on the president and myself doesn't mean anything because its simply not true.


I've read your post, many times actually. The problem is its largely barren of substance other than 'he's not racist because its not true'. Which is funny, because the post is bereft entirely of any actual dissection/deconstruction of what was said (or the context/pattern from which it comes) and instead only reeks of 'its simply not true because the words are meaningless now'. Sorry no, you don't get carte blanche to make racist statements (or in your case seemingly defend them) by saying 'its simply not true'.

Again, nobody on my side cares about the 'isms. You're going to throw them around no matter what, so why should I care? My goodness, even AOC tried to slap the racist label on Pelosi! Its become absolutely absurd.


The fact that you or 'your side' don't care is likely true, and personally not because the terms are just political ammunition, but because you have seemingly zero interest in actually engaging with whats said (or how many times).


The key part here is:
things they see in their society

That's the problem right there, they see everything in society through the lens of identity politics.


:lol: Kettle and pot here? The idea the white right doesn't see everything in society through the lens of their identity politics is absurd. Additionally, you don't get to ignore complaints of marginalized minorities because you decide the way they view the world is incorrect. I especially would suggest you don't get to do that while refusing to engage in any of the actual content.

It is disingenuous, self serving, and yes hateful.


Agreed. And thats what was spewed forth today, and from day 1, of Trump's campaign. I really find it hilarious that I'm having a conversation using these terms self-serving, disingenuous, and hateful..when those are the cornerstones of Trump since the inception of his campaign (and before).

That's why Trump attacked them, they represent aspects of the political left that much of America has come to despise. The moderate democrats are well aware of this and were trying to get the radical leftists to cool it on the hate rhetoric, but the instant Trump got involved the entire democratic party jumped to the defense of the radicals. If the democrats continue to stand by the radical fringe they will loose in 2020 and loose very badly.


The left is going to lose 2020 regardless, but this idea that these four women of color are really radical is disconnected with a lot of reality. Sure, they're not the middle-ground, by definition, but that their ideology (or rather some of their sentiments and goals) is not shared by large swathes of the population is simply untrue. Also, this is not why Trump attacked them. Trump attacks everyone who disagrees with him (and often just because) and its allegedly regardless of party/status etc (untrue but thats his equal-opportunity bully gimmic).

But what I am impressed with is that you, and other mainstream Republicans, didn't even engage in the verbal and logical gynamistics that you typically do in trying to take a blatantly racist statement and argue some nonsense that he was 'misunderstood' or 'the media spun it wrong' etc. This time you just side-stepped the entire substance of his malicious tweets (see I, like you and Trump, can say things are 'hateful' too but I'm willing to discuss what that actually means.) and instead basically cry 'we dont have to think about what he said. what it means, and who it appeals to because this is 'politics as usual' (likely insert some anti-pc culture comment).
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