Sex is Overrated

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Re: Sex is Overrated

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:56 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:At no point did I read Bush Leagues advocating child labour or slavery in that post. Wondering quite the post got so hostile.

You do the first two segments of your post WWD in a pleasant, amiable debate which is you at your friendliest, then a few aggressive taking a point directly which is perfectly good and then it just gets... an unpleasant tone.


I'm saying only that that is a highly incomplete, and indeed rather anti-humanistic, read of American history during that era. I have an allergic reaction to reading, particularly the 1920's and before, and particularly the 1860's and before, through rose-coloured spectacles. ('A time of moral fiber', I believe was his exact phrase. If you are going to make that argument, you should have to contend with slavery and child labour, along with a number of other public policy, cultural and societal choices.) Life was better for the average American in the 1950's through the 1970's, I believe, only because we placed certain regulations on the financial system and implemented measures to give more people access to a something resembling a living wage and a decently stable lifestyle. It certainly isn't as if everything was hunky-dory back then because the average individual was particularly thrifty or industrious, which seemed to be his primary point. And when BL himself mentioned that children would be better-disciplined if they lived in those times, well, that stance has some... unfortunate implications.

Dong Zhou wrote:First the equivalent of "you clearly advocate child labour and slavery you monster" (if your saying that wasn't a moral time and such light touch regulation led to horrors, there are less hostile ways of doing it but done it myself) and then the bit that concerned me:

Be very careful when you talk about history, Bush Leagues. For most people the past isn't over. It isn't even past.


So a bolding for some reason (which I doubt was to highlight you love the username) plus sentences that feel like your carrying a metaphorical club and shutting down the debate.


I'm sorry, Dong Zhou. But in my own defence, I've been bolding everyone's usernames. Including Sun Fin's and CaoCaoTsundere's, in this very same conversation, if you'll care to check the edit history. (You are a mod, yes?) It's a habit I picked up on another forum as a courtesy to see when specific users are being responded to. I've also used it for titles of movies over in the movies thread. If you think it is inappropriate here, I'll cease and desist. But it's not like I'm singling him out when I've been doing it to everyone.
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Re: Sex is Overrated

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:18 pm

WeiWenDi wrote:I'm saying only that that is a highly incomplete, and indeed rather anti-humanistic, read of American history during that era. I have an allergic reaction to reading, particularly the 1920's and before, and particularly the 1860's and before, through rose-coloured spectacles. ('A time of moral fiber', I believe was his exact phrase. If you are going to make that argument, you should have to contend with slavery and child labour, along with a number of other public policy, cultural and societal choices.) Life was better for the average American in the 1950's through the 1970's, I believe, only because we placed certain regulations on the financial system and implemented measures to give more people access to a something resembling a living wage and a decently stable lifestyle. It certainly isn't as if everything was hunky-dory back then because the average individual was particularly thrifty or industrious, which seemed to be his primary point. And when BL himself mentioned that children would be better-disciplined if they lived in those times, well, that stance has some... unfortunate implications.


I don't think BL meant child labour in terms of better discipline but that was more like the friendly side of the debate. Thank you

WeiWenDi wrote:I'm sorry, Dong Zhou. But in my own defence, I've been bolding everyone's usernames. Including Sun Fin's and CaoCaoTsundere's, in this very same conversation, if you'll care to check the edit history. (You are a mod, yes?) It's a habit I picked up on another forum as a courtesy to see when specific users are being responded to. I've also used it for titles of movies over in the movies thread. If you think it is inappropriate here, I'll cease and desist. But it's not like I'm singling him out when I've been doing it to everyone.


I'll happily take your word for it in terms of editing.

In terms of movies, I more notice you doing the link bolding thing which I have borrowed. In terms of the bolded names, it was the first time I had noticed it but looking back in the thread, you have done it to others but I had missed it. So when I "saw it for the first time" in that sentence, I took a negative connotation.

For the unfounded accusation, I do apologize WWD and I withdraw it. As for bolded names, that is perfectly fine.
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Re: Sex is Overrated

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:39 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
WeiWenDi wrote:I'm saying only that that is a highly incomplete, and indeed rather anti-humanistic, read of American history during that era. I have an allergic reaction to reading, particularly the 1920's and before, and particularly the 1860's and before, through rose-coloured spectacles. ('A time of moral fiber', I believe was his exact phrase. If you are going to make that argument, you should have to contend with slavery and child labour, along with a number of other public policy, cultural and societal choices.) Life was better for the average American in the 1950's through the 1970's, I believe, only because we placed certain regulations on the financial system and implemented measures to give more people access to a something resembling a living wage and a decently stable lifestyle. It certainly isn't as if everything was hunky-dory back then because the average individual was particularly thrifty or industrious, which seemed to be his primary point. And when BL himself mentioned that children would be better-disciplined if they lived in those times, well, that stance has some... unfortunate implications.


I don't think BL meant child labour in terms of better discipline but that was more like the friendly side of the debate. Thank you


I don't think he did either. I wasn't addressing Bush Leagues personally there; actually, I thought I was giving him an opportunity to walk back a couple of his less well-considered statements. He did say he was looking at general trends rather than specific empirically-measurable policies or their effects, which is understandable. It's just that, when you're talking about history in this kind of way, you really need to consider all sides of that history and not just the parts you like.

So yes - low regulation and limited government. But also Pinkerton's detectives. Federal marshals ordering troops to fire on striking mine workers. Lynch mobs. Predatory speculation. Massacres of American Indians. Workplace fires that ended in hundreds of deaths. Environmental damage. Quite honestly, my personal read (and this is also probably subject to dispute; I'm also quite fallible on some issues) American society was far more civilised both prior to 1660 (when the first racially-based laws passed in Maryland and Virginia), and after 1939, than it was at any time between.

Dong Zhou wrote:I'll happily take your word for it in terms of editing.

In terms of movies, I more notice you doing the link bolding thing which I have borrowed. In terms of the bolded names, it was the first time I had noticed it but looking back in the thread, you have done it to others but I had missed it. So when I "saw it for the first time" in that sentence, I took a negative connotation.

For the unfounded accusation, I do apologize WWD and I withdraw it. As for bolded names, that is perfectly fine.


No worries, DZ! I can certainly see how it looked like I was being overly aggressive there, and I do have a history of having a sharp edge to my debating style. (I do try to keep it impersonal and objective, but then, as you say, sometimes it comes off as unfriendly and combative.) I am trying to moderate that, and trying to see things through other debaters' eyes. Obviously I'm still not always very good at that. And if you just noticed the bolding then, yes, it would look rather strange. :D

Thanks for being patient with me. And Bush Leagues, I'm very sorry to you for my sharp-edged tone there, and for obliquely suggesting that you supported the policies from those times like child labour and slavery. Calling you out certainly wasn't my intent - I think and I hope you don't support those things!
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Re: Sex is Overrated

Unread postby Ranbir » Sat Apr 18, 2015 7:25 pm

I could live without it easily. Any emotional needs(of feeling wanted and happy affections) I could fulfil with a dog or something. And a dog would give a lot less drama.
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Re: Sex is Overrated

Unread postby Bush Leagues » Sun Apr 19, 2015 1:03 am

Ranbir wrote:I could live without it easily. Any emotional needs(of feeling wanted and happy affections) I could fulfil with a dog or something. And a dog would give a lot less drama.


Kinda hard to have a meaningful conversation with a dog, though. :lol:

Anyway, I'm ready to step away from this talk. I was interested in talking about sex and sexuality, and less so talking about society's decadence, as the OP wanted. I'm even less interested in talking about the early stages of this country, mainly because I don't have what I need to engage in this kind of talk in a serious debate environment. As I said in the big post, this is much more about things I've heard and the feelings I have; I don't have the time, money, or resources to get into serious empirical research about this.

I'll conclude with just a few things. Firstly, I was talking about one particular thing in society, and not really even addressing society or culture as a whole. Secondly, I can approve of certain aspects of a thing without approving of all aspects of a thing.

Finally, WWD, no hard feelings. :D

I'll keep paying attention to the thread, and if I feel like stepping in, I will.
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Re: Sex is Overrated

Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:30 am

SunXia wrote:Also hand-holding in public, hand slapping away hands trying to do that is more like it. I'm nobody's property and I certainly don't have the desire or need to promote to the world "this person is mine". I keep my affection private in that regard. I've seen too many people stand in public like that or with their hand in each others back pockets and looking around for attention. I know its not the only reason for some but I've seen many do it out of insecurity and like "this public display validates my lack of singlehood" or something. I much prefer a private tension so that when the door closes to the world it all come toppling out!!


Interesting.

I don't like over the top PDA, it makes me feel uncomfortable. However a short kiss hello, or a hug or holding hands is something that I think is very mild and sweet as opposed to sickening.

As for the possession thing, I don't like girls sitting on guys laps for that reason. However holding hands for me is all about the fact that I love being around my girlfriend and letting each other know how much we care and has nothing to do with the outside world.
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Re: Sex is Overrated

Unread postby Jebusrocks » Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:33 am

Sun Fin wrote:
SunXia wrote:Also hand-holding in public, hand slapping away hands trying to do that is more like it. I'm nobody's property and I certainly don't have the desire or need to promote to the world "this person is mine". I keep my affection private in that regard. I've seen too many people stand in public like that or with their hand in each others back pockets and looking around for attention. I know its not the only reason for some but I've seen many do it out of insecurity and like "this public display validates my lack of singlehood" or something. I much prefer a private tension so that when the door closes to the world it all come toppling out!!


Interesting.

I don't like over the top PDA, it makes me feel uncomfortable. However a short kiss hello, or a hug or holding hands is something that I think is very mild and sweet as opposed to sickening.

As for the possession thing, I don't like girls sitting on guys laps for that reason. However holding hands for me is all about the fact that I love being around my girlfriend and letting each other know how much we care and has nothing to do with the outside world.


I think it depends, I personally don't mind over the top PDA when you know the couple and when you know they just started dating (esp. if you know it was building up to them dating) and they're clearly in their honeymoon phase and can't keep their hands off each other, though it does get annoying after like a day haha
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