Indiana, Memories Pizza and the Benedict Option

Discuss events that have an impact on you and the world today. A home for honest, serious, and open discussion.

Re: Indiana, Memories Pizza and the Benedict Option

Unread postby Bush Leagues » Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:39 am

Gray Riders wrote:It's not hard to think of situations where a business will really want to refuse service, especially businesses like cakes where specific decorations and themes are expected.


Right. It only hurts a business to refuse service based on factors that are completely irrelevant to the transaction (like the customer's sexual preference). This is part of why I prefer a market system, as opposed to a centralized system.

Gray Riders wrote:I was kind of worried I'd give the impression that I was gleefully awaiting the hammer of doom to fall on people, so I decided to clarify. I was just trying to point out that a lot of these people seem very shortsighted and lack the ability to really look at their actions and consider long-term consequences.


This is super true. I remember watching a video of a lecture Milton Friedman (Nobel Prize winner in economics, libertarian and free market capitalist) speak before the Association of American Manufacturers Congress (or something like that) where a lot of big names in business gathered and spoke about things. He said something along of the lines of...

Milton Friedman, Paraphrased slightly wrote:I am struck time and again by the stark contrast between how businessmen conduct themselves for their business and how business conduct themselves when dealing with political issues. When dealing with his business, a business man will think long-term; he will think 20, 30 years down the road. He does not conduct his business merely for how thing will go in the next 6 months. When arguing for or against new laws, however...well, 6 months is a long time to look ahead.


I'd say that's pretty insightful of you Grey Riders; you managed to mirror a Nobel Prize winner's thoughts on your own! :D

Dong Zhou wrote:Side in general. MP's do it, did talking about a specific issue with them, but you see it in the journalists, the activists, on the internet.


Quite. I don't think it's too strongly one side or the other here in the States. I mean, it happens left and right, but one side doesn't own a clear, decisive advantage. Most newspapers, internet things, and major broadcast companies are left-leaning; but then the right has a stranglehold on talk radio, Fox News, and a few other things. It's probably close to a wash here in terms of who has the "media" edge.

Shen Ai wrote:That is sadly the major point that stuck in my head after this.


That's pretty funny, Shen. :lol:
Currently playing: Android: Netrunner LCG , Shadowrun (tabletop), and Warhammer Ancient Battle.

Pan Feng can destroy this Hua Xiong! A Han Fu ROTK IX After-Action Report.
One of the best posts ever about Pan Feng.
Bush Leagues
Sage
 
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:12 am
Location: New Iberia. LA

Re: Indiana, Memories Pizza and the Benedict Option

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:21 pm

Gray Riders wrote:
Dong Zhou wrote:People should not vote based on party loyalty, it is brainless and highly damaging to democracy. No reason why parties should be loyal to their stronghold, if anything that tends to be damaging as much as neglecting them.

My comment on "parties aren't loyal to us" was less about doing unpopular actions and more of the sorts of blatant corruption that occurs shockly often. My views are probably skewed; there's been a lot of political scandals (not Monica Lewinsky sex scandal stuff, things like government officials using public funds for private housing, city officials wasting tons of money on contracts whose costs were misrepresented, things like that) recently where I live from all levels of government.


I'm sorry to hear that

Bush Leagues wrote:Quite. I don't think it's too strongly one side or the other here in the States. I mean, it happens left and right, but one side doesn't own a clear, decisive advantage. Most newspapers, internet things, and major broadcast companies are left-leaning; but then the right has a stranglehold on talk radio, Fox News, and a few other things. It's probably close to a wash here in terms of who has the "media" edge.


Over here, BBC is probably left-leaning but conservative in attitude (basically, any change is wrong unless you can prove otherwise) and we have left-wing papers but the popular press is right-wing ones like the Sun and Mail (who called Ed Miliband's late father, a refugee from Nazi Germany who fought in the British Navy, a traitor for having different views then the Mail so as you can tell, both sides can be sods.)
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 14796
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Indiana, Memories Pizza and the Benedict Option

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:24 am

Dong Zhou wrote:This surprises you?

Let us take feminism. On the left there are many great champions on this and rising champions yet I have heard that Tory female MP's feel that some of those champions have decided those Tories can't be woman because they are Tories. Yep 30-40% of the population can not be feminists in the eyes of left-wing bigots because feminism isn't as important as partisan loyalty and hatred. Time after time, one sees the left rise up if those they approve of receive sexism but too many take a vow of silence if it happens to a right-wing woman. Like, say, a minister being described as "lynch that b...", I swear I have read at least once the equivalent of "she had it coming"

It is also rape and child abuse where some on the left seem to have two standards: what to do in normal circumstances, what to do when the accused is a hero of theirs.


Yeah, I've been noticing this as well for awhile now. It's really unfortunate - again, though, I think the universal aspirations of the liberal-left arise out of admirable intentions, but it's incredibly difficult for them to psychologically realise them. Tribal instincts rear their ugly heads very quickly, and the liberal-left seems to have a really bad case of denial when one of their own (or a group of their own) starts to exhibit them.

Problem is, there's no one else for me to support. I can't stand libertarians; they're corporate shills and they're completely ineffectual. The Democrats are sellouts who use liberal social policy as a distraction from their concessions to big business. The Republicans just completely suck, don't even get me started. Basically I'm a reluctant Green - they put their emphasis on issues that I care about, and they emphasise those issues in the right way. At the very least they aren't corporate shills the way the Democrats are.

Gray Riders wrote:To the surprise of nobody, they're now attacking a separate pizza place with a similar name.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/03/living/me ... tity-feat/

Ah, internet. Why check facts when you're just a few clicks from being a hero to your peers?


Well, to be frank, they weren't exactly checking facts either when attacking the Walkerton, IN store. Which never actually discriminated against gay people, and whose owners were guilty only of crimethink and doubleplusungoodspeak.

Bush Leagues wrote:I know this is someone's quote, modified by me: "A person is intelligent, thoughtful, and reasonable. People are panicky, quick to judge, and completely irrational."


Everything tendency toward evil is present in the individual soul; the mob mentality of course magnifies these, makes them easier and more seductive, but there is nothing that sanctifies the individual soul apart from repentance.

Bush Leagues wrote:Quite. I don't think it's too strongly one side or the other here in the States. I mean, it happens left and right, but one side doesn't own a clear, decisive advantage. Most newspapers, internet things, and major broadcast companies are left-leaning; but then the right has a stranglehold on talk radio, Fox News, and a few other things. It's probably close to a wash here in terms of who has the "media" edge.


That's deliberate, I think. The same group of banking interests funds both parties, and corporations line up on one side or the other depending on how they construe their own interests. It's not surprising to me that there's a balance between the two; it seems to be carefully orchestrated.
Some more blood, Chekov. The needle won't hurt, Chekov. Take off your shirt, Chekov. Roll over, Chekov. Breathe deeply, Chekov. Blood sample, Chekov! Marrow sample, Chekov! Skin sample, Chekov! If I live long enough... I'm going to run out of samples.
User avatar
WeiWenDi
Hedgehog Emperor
 
Posts: 3823
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:09 am
Location: L'Étoile du Nord

Re: Indiana, Memories Pizza and the Benedict Option

Unread postby Bush Leagues » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:29 am

WeiWenDi wrote:Well, to be frank, they weren't exactly checking facts either when attacking the Walkerton, IN store. Which never actually discriminated against gay people, and whose owners were guilty only of crimethink and doubleplusungoodspeak.


Yeah, I love 1984 too.

I remember a man in the UK was given prison time for possessing a certain kind of adult content material (drawn h-mangas that depicted loli-con). Thoughtcrime is a real thing. Happened in the UK, just a matter of time before it comes here.

WeiWenDi wrote:Everything tendency toward evil is present in the individual soul; the mob mentality of course magnifies these, makes them easier and more seductive, but there is nothing that sanctifies the individual soul apart from repentance.


Mmhmm. It is up to each individual person to ensure their darker thoughts do not become darker actions. You get no absolution because "everyone was doing it".

WeiWenDi wrote:That's deliberate, I think. The same group of banking interests funds both parties, and corporations line up on one side or the other depending on how they construe their own interests. It's not surprising to me that there's a balance between the two; it seems to be carefully orchestrated.


Whoa. That's a bit heavy on the conspiratorial bent for me, but this isn't completely out there. Politics is probably the most conspiratorial enterprise I know.
Currently playing: Android: Netrunner LCG , Shadowrun (tabletop), and Warhammer Ancient Battle.

Pan Feng can destroy this Hua Xiong! A Han Fu ROTK IX After-Action Report.
One of the best posts ever about Pan Feng.
Bush Leagues
Sage
 
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:12 am
Location: New Iberia. LA

Re: Indiana, Memories Pizza and the Benedict Option

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:58 pm

Bush Leagues wrote:I remember a man in the UK was given prison time for possessing a certain kind of adult content material (drawn h-mangas that depicted loli-con). Thoughtcrime is a real thing. Happened in the UK, just a matter of time before it comes here.


Not seen that one? That would also not be the example of thought-crime that I would use but we do seem to be heading that way, legally where it covers fears of terrorism and culturally where the loud ones disapprove.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 14796
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Indiana, Memories Pizza and the Benedict Option

Unread postby Bush Leagues » Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:00 am

Dong Zhou wrote:
Bush Leagues wrote:I remember a man in the UK was given prison time for possessing a certain kind of adult content material (drawn h-mangas that depicted loli-con). Thoughtcrime is a real thing. Happened in the UK, just a matter of time before it comes here.


Not seen that one? That would also not be the example of thought-crime that I would use but we do seem to be heading that way, legally where it covers fears of terrorism and culturally where the loud ones disapprove.


It's close enough to thought-crime for me, particularly with what the judge said. It was something like "...this material goes strongly enough against the common morals..." and some more that I can't remember enough to accurately quote.

When I get the chance, I'll try and find a link. I'll also throw up a new thread for it, since this is off-topic.
Currently playing: Android: Netrunner LCG , Shadowrun (tabletop), and Warhammer Ancient Battle.

Pan Feng can destroy this Hua Xiong! A Han Fu ROTK IX After-Action Report.
One of the best posts ever about Pan Feng.
Bush Leagues
Sage
 
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:12 am
Location: New Iberia. LA

Re: Indiana, Memories Pizza and the Benedict Option

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:50 pm

If deemed showing minors in... adult situations, that would be against the common morals particularly during a time when that has become a major issue. Given cultural issues, I would expect an appeal could easily be made
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 14796
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Indiana, Memories Pizza and the Benedict Option

Unread postby SunXia » Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:17 pm

I've found a few links about that particular case here is one from BBC I can't find a more recent one for BBC other than 2008!! Here's one for The Mirror!! Other Links here and here.

I am fully against these images and I do not think they are alright, depicting children being raped and abused, even if it is in cartoon format. In the same vein I am also against the depictions of Bart Simpson having sex with his mother on porn sites and such and there's no change to his child appearance other than he has a penis.

Now I'm not saying that if you view these images you are automatically a sex offender, but I do think standards need to be kept in check. I have never been and never will be, comfortable with depictions of children having sex. It was one of the main reasons I did not want to read Game of Thrones, I am highly against it whether or not it is realistic of the time periods it is attempting to show within the mystical land. (Granted, Martin did handle it a lot better than the TV show where Dany is crying and saying "No")

I do not know if it's a thought crime since you have material that depicts a child, granted a cartoon child, engaging in sex.

As for the actual Topic, I fully disagree with the Pizzeria's stance but I also disagree entirely with bullying, especially when they haven't done anything wrong. Bullying is also wrong if they had discriminated but that's a matter that would be taken up by the courts and should be left to the courts. Of course people are allowed to comment and disagree with the topic at hand, that can be done without bullying.
If becoming enlightened or an intellectual means I must become arrogant and coldly cynical about the world around me then I'd gladly remain a fool for the rest of my life!!

I'm Out4Marriage!!!Are You??

It is a CHOICE!!
User avatar
SunXia
Warrior Princess
Warrior Princess
 
Posts: 6531
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:48 pm
Location: Keeping Evils from this world at bay...with a smile!!

Re: Indiana, Memories Pizza and the Benedict Option

Unread postby Bush Leagues » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:55 am

SunXia, and Dong Zhou, before anything else, I recommend these posts related to this be moved to a new thread, since this is kind of off-topic. If you disagree, no problem, just wanted to point it out. I've self-flagged this post for that purpose.

SunXia wrote:I've found a few links about that particular case here is one from BBC I can't find a more recent one for BBC other than 2008!! Here's one for The Mirror!! Other Links here and here.


Thanks. I haven't had time to get these myself. I hadn't realized the level of realism in the photographs; the places where I saw it talked about before never mentioned it. More information is almost always better, and I would like to know nothing but the facts so that the truth can be found.

Jeez, I sound like an Ace Attorney game. :roll: But I do actually believe that. :D

SunXia wrote:I am fully against these images and I do not think they are alright, depicting children being raped and abused, even if it is in cartoon format. In the same vein I am also against the depictions of Bart Simpson having sex with his mother on porn sites and such and there's no change to his child appearance other than he has a penis.


You are one thousand percent within your rights to be morally opposed to such things. Indeed, I suspect most people are.

SunXia wrote:I have never been and never will be, comfortable with depictions of children having sex. It was one of the main reasons I did not want to read Game of Thrones, I am highly against it whether or not it is realistic of the time periods it is attempting to show within the mystical land. (Granted, Martin did handle it a lot better than the TV show where Dany is crying and saying "No")


This is personal choice and you are, again, one thousand percent in your rights to decide for yourself. I've never read or watched Game of Thrones, but I remember seeing the rape scene in The Other Boleyn Girl - it was very disturbing to watch; I was pretty uncomfortable, and that was only for a few seconds.

SunXia wrote:I do not know if it's a thought crime since you have material that depicts a child, granted a cartoon child, engaging in sex.


The medium is kind of irrelevant. Does it make it better or worse if it's written in a story format with no pictures? Or if he merely leans back in his chair and thinks about it? It's all the same - he is engaging in non-harmful acts in the privacy of his own home, having no intention to ever commit a crime along these lines.

SunXia wrote:Now I'm not saying that if you view these images you are automatically a sex offender, but I do think standards need to be kept in check.


And this, I think, is the important bit that we need to get to. Firstly, it seems the judge in this case agrees with you.

Judge Tony Briggs wrote:Judge Tony Briggs told Hoque in court after his most recent conviction, "You are an intelligent man. You certainly should have been aware of the risk of indulging in accessing this material, and you acknowledge your foolishness and guilt. This is material that clearly society and the public can well do without. Its danger is that it obviously portrays sexual activity with children, and the more it's portrayed, the more the ill-disposed may think it's acceptable."


Secondly, I completely understand the want of people to stop things like this - you find that someone is engaging in behavior you find morally unacceptable, and think "we should make this kind of thing illegal; it has no place in society!" I totally understand the sentiment. But that's exactly the kind of thing I think we have to fight against if we want to live in a free society. People use the guise of "public morality" to forbid things they disagree with, using the tyranny of the majority to do it through government. In fact, if you truly want to live in a free society, you have to argue for the things you actually find reprehensible.

Take the Ku Klux Klan here in America - an organization dedicated to white power and getting rid of all people of color. Now, I am clearly morally opposed to what they have to say. It is vile, they attempt to shatter human dignity, etc. But I fully believe in their right to say it. If any attempt to silence them, I would defend their right to speak every time. I believe that's important for someone who's truly committed to freedom.

So, obviously in a society, there has to be lines. We can't allow absolute freedom - that's anarchy, and not what living in a society is about. Why do we congregate in societies, communities, and countries in the first place? To do things collectively that we cannot do individually. This includes many things like arranging public safety (by having police to catch criminals and deter crime), protecting our country against foreign invaders (the army, navy, air force, etc), and arranging a system by which we can arbitrate disputes and prosecute criminals (the courts).

So what becomes important is the line where you feel what's best done collectively ends and what's best done individually begins. As someone who believes in human freedom - and that as long as you are not doing harm to others, you deserve to make your own choices and determine your own life for yourself - I believe that morality is best left to individuals and not government. I don't want someone else to decide for me; I want to decide for myself. I am a free-thinking, sentient, capable individual, and I deserve that right. For that reason, I would not have government legislate against things like this man has, nor legislate against gay marriage (returning to the Indiana law), nor legislate against discrimination like the KKK demonstrates.

In general, I believe that people who really believe in freedom should support this position. If you start thinking that morality should be left up to government to decide, through the voting public/representatives, I would probably say that you're not really interested in freedom; rather you're interested on imposing your morality on others, even if you don't mean to.
Currently playing: Android: Netrunner LCG , Shadowrun (tabletop), and Warhammer Ancient Battle.

Pan Feng can destroy this Hua Xiong! A Han Fu ROTK IX After-Action Report.
One of the best posts ever about Pan Feng.
Bush Leagues
Sage
 
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:12 am
Location: New Iberia. LA

Re: Indiana, Memories Pizza and the Benedict Option

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:07 am

Bush Leagues wrote:The medium is kind of irrelevant. Does it make it better or worse if it's written in a story format with no pictures? Or if he merely leans back in his chair and thinks about it? It's all the same - he is engaging in non-harmful acts in the privacy of his own home, having no intention to ever commit a crime along these lines.


That's where I have to disagree with you. The medium is not irrelevant, nor is the context. If you just think about a certain sex act, no one else can see it or has to hear about it. If you write it down or draw it or film it, then other people can see it and hear about it. And of course it matters in what context the writing or drawing or filming of it is presented - if the purpose of it is to titillate arousal or provoke outrage or to make a broader point, for example.

Bush Leagues wrote:Secondly, I completely understand the want of people to stop things like this - you find that someone is engaging in behavior you find morally unacceptable, and think "we should make this kind of thing illegal; it has no place in society!" I totally understand the sentiment. But that's exactly the kind of thing I think we have to fight against if we want to live in a free society. People use the guise of "public morality" to forbid things they disagree with, using the tyranny of the majority to do it through government. In fact, if you truly want to live in a free society, you have to argue for the things you actually find reprehensible.


Well, therein lies the problem. You say below precisely that you don't want anarchy. But that's precisely what you get if you don't draw the line somewhere with regard to public morality, and assume that morality is completely private rather than the proper domain of the government. You can't have it both ways. If you don't want political or moral anarchy, then those lines regarding proper public behaviour don't always have to be ones with legal punishments attached, but they do have to be there.

SunXia wrote:As for the actual Topic, I fully disagree with the Pizzeria's stance but I also disagree entirely with bullying, especially when they haven't done anything wrong. Bullying is also wrong if they had discriminated but that's a matter that would be taken up by the courts and should be left to the courts. Of course people are allowed to comment and disagree with the topic at hand, that can be done without bullying.


True.

On the one hand, I can't support gay marriage, and it follows that I don't think the society should do so either. On the other hand, I think that homosexuals and people who support them on this issue should be completely free to speak their minds without being harassed or hurt. It's just that, at a certain level, the pro-SSM side doesn't seem to be as invested in extending the same charity to their opponents...
Some more blood, Chekov. The needle won't hurt, Chekov. Take off your shirt, Chekov. Roll over, Chekov. Breathe deeply, Chekov. Blood sample, Chekov! Marrow sample, Chekov! Skin sample, Chekov! If I live long enough... I'm going to run out of samples.
User avatar
WeiWenDi
Hedgehog Emperor
 
Posts: 3823
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:09 am
Location: L'Étoile du Nord

PreviousNext

Return to Current Affairs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved