Government Sponsored College Education

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Re: Government Sponsored College Education

Unread postby Bush Leagues » Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:55 am

FoxWithWings wrote:Like the circumstance of Bush with the manager who cannot manage.


Oy, oy! I said "a friend", not me personally! :lol: I've never been a cashier.

What you mean is...

FoxWithWings, Improved version wrote:Like the circumstances Bush presented with the manager who cannot manage.


Much better. :lol:
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Re: Government Sponsored College Education

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:27 am

FoxWithWings wrote:This. This I agree with wholesale. My grandfather, who did not earn even his High School degree, was a genius. This man could build a porch within a day, work all day with no lunch and little breaks. He was a master with his hands, a true artisan.

In my mother's work, I see her other nurses putting acronym after acronym following their names. MSN, BSN, yada yada yada. It annoys me to no end. My mother does it because she is proud of her education (I do not attempt to dissuade her off of this. It is a good thing to be proud of). But, in my view. If you must make an introduction by putting so many letters after your name, then you're doing something wrong.


SunXia wrote:I'm fine with anyone getting a degree if they want to work for one, I don't think anyone knows what will happen to them so they have a right to do with their lives as they see fit and shouldn't be held back by class barriers or because their parents can't fit the bill.

I have a degree, I consider myself an intelligent person and everywhere I go people refer to my intelligence as one of my main qualities. Do I have the job I always wanted? No. Do I regret doing my degree? Never in a million years do I regret an opportunity to expand my level of education and to see what it takes to get to that higher level...

I work a minimum wage job, doesn't bother me, I know many people with my condition that don't work and I know I make man people happy everyday. Would I change that fact that I have a degree? Hell no, I worked for that and I am entitled to it just like anyone. And on that basis I wouldn't want to stop anyone from doing what they want to, nobody knows what the future holds and I'm not in favor of preventing someone from trying to follow their dreams because someone else wants to follow their dreams too and just because they held their nerves better on one day their dream should come first.


FoxWithWings wrote:SunXia, you have every right in the world to be proud and celebrate your degree. Because disregarding everything I said before, while the acronyms may be useless, the education they (hopefully) came with is most certainly not. And education is almost never easy. Classes are not easy, the papers you must write for them are not easy, the studying and stressing is not easy.

If I came off as dismissive of other's education, including yours, then I apologize, this was not my intent. And extending off of what you said. You are very correct. Regardless of whether you have that degree or not, your reputation precedes you. People don't say "There goes SunXia, she has so-and-so degrees". They say "There goes SunXia, she's wicked smart."

My main point is, degrees don't really determine anything. Yes, they are an accomplishment, certainly, and something to be proud of. But they don't determine whether someone is good at something or not.


:shock:

Okay, since it seems to have been my comment that touched this whole exchange off, I think maybe I should clarify.

There's an expectation in the US - and it looks like in the UK, too - that in order to 'make it' in life, in order to 'be somebody', you have to have credentials, a baccalaureate being essentially the cultural signifier of the baseline for being 'not a loser'. At the same time, the economy is such that having that baccalaureate is no guarantee of economic success, or even any kind of stable work. That might have been true at one point, but 2007 changed a lot of things.

Speaking as a guy with a master's degree who somehow (mostly, if I'm being honest, by sheer luck and the incredible kindness of my relatives) came up on the other side without any debts, the whole meritocratic myth that is present in some corners of our education system and culture is total bunk. I'm (gradually) coming to hate it with a passion. I'm not being ungrateful here - I understand that my parents and my grandparents and the schools I applied to all believed sincerely and wholeheartedly in the meritocratic myth, and I value the work they did and the help they gave me even if I don't buy into their reasoning. As an AmeriCorps volunteer in the state school system, I also helped a lot of poor, underserved, first-generation youth apply for college and financial aid. I don't regret that one bit.

But a lot of my peers, a lot of kids, they didn't get all the chances I got, and I'm mostly outraged on their behalf. That includes all the youngsters who will be dismissed as 'losers' because they didn't get into uni, all the brilliant kids who went into a lower-tier uni because they couldn't afford anything else, all the kids who lucked out and did get into their dream institution but will have problems paying for it, that will haunt them for decades after they get their degree. And it's all based on this myth that their parents' generation bought into (however sincerely), that their degree will pay for itself, and - to be blunt - it's not doing so.

They're stuck flipping burgers for eight hours a day, six days a week, to pay off the interest on their student loans. If they're lucky. There's nothing wrong or shameful about that, of course, but career advancement opportunities have been very thin on the ground these past eight years, generally speaking.

More broadly, though, culturally speaking, FoxWithWings: it's completely understandable to want to put the letters after your name. I agree with you that it shouldn't be necessary. But we live in a society which devalues people and makes them to feel worthless if they aren't at a certain rung of the socio-economic ladder. And not just nurses, but all people in the 'economy of care' - they're doing God's work. They should never be made to feel useless, even if they don't make a lot of money or carry a lot of prestige. They're necessary, and if they do their jobs well, we should pay honour to them.

Side note: a friend of mine from Russia once said that even if the Soviet system had a lot of abuses, he respected the honours for exemplary proletarians. If all they did was sweep streets or clean privies, the society would still give them a medal if they did it well. And he hated ('despised', was the word he used) the fact that Yeltsin and the capitalist 'reformers' got rid of those honours.

~~~

TL;DR version - I guess what I was trying to say before was this:

  1. Education is a good thing in itself. Exposure to knowledge, ideas, history and science is important, in itself. But it shouldn't have to be modelled linearly on the idea that a BA or a BS is the meal ticket to a dignified life.
  2. It's possible to be loved, to be useful and to be respectable, without having a BA or a BS.
  3. The amount of debt we got driven into in the pursuit of the meal ticket is obscene.
  4. We need a way of telling people who are entering the workforce that doing jobs that don't require a BA or a BS is not something shameful, but rather honourable.

PS: SunXia, I'm incredibly sorry to hear about your medical condition! But, I'm glad to hear that - as it sounds from your post - you're making the most of it and refusing to let it get in the way of your life.
Last edited by WeiWenDi on Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Government Sponsored College Education

Unread postby SunXia » Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:38 am

FoxWithWings wrote:
I am a tad confused are you saying it's ok for your mom to do it but not others to do it??


Not at all. They are free to do such a thing. Their lives are not mine to command. I just see it as rather... useless, I guess.

SunXia, you have every right in the world to be proud and celebrate your degree. Because disregarding everything I said before, while the acronyms may be useless, the education they (hopefully) came with is most certainly not. And education is almost never easy. Classes are not easy, the papers you must write for them are not easy, the studying and stressing is not easy.

If I came off as dismissive of other's education, including yours, then I apologize, this was not my intent. And extending off of what you said. You are very correct. Regardless of whether you have that degree or not, your reputation precedes you. People don't say "There goes SunXia, she has so-and-so degrees". They say "There goes SunXia, she's wicked smart."

My main point is, degrees don't really determine anything. Yes, they are an accomplishment, certainly, and something to be proud of. But they don't determine whether someone is good at something or not. Like the circumstance of Bush with the manager who cannot manage. One can have no degrees, and be the next Einstein. One may have their masters, and yet struggles to make it through the day-to-day grind.


I'm sorry if you thought my entire post was directed at you, it mostly was directed at the concept of culling the numbers of people who want degrees or who want to enter other forms of higher education. Mostly the first line was directed at you because when I was reading it sounded like your were ok with your mum being proud of it but found it useless in others etc but you explained that.

Yes there are plenty of managers who can't manage, nurses that lack the necessary empathy to put patients at ease when they are administrating stuff, teacher who are very proud of their doctorates but aren't very good at passing that knowledge along etc etc. However, that is the role of their employers to address in terms of references and observations. I still honestly don't think it should stop people trying to better themselves.

Sure, there should be emphasis put on education in all walks of life ie skilled work or research work etc but I am very happy that many people are now presented with the chance to obtain a degree, it means its more diverse and means more people who are just better at holding their nerve or spinning something in certain ways at interviews but aren't necessarily good at the job, are not the only people obtaining those degrees. If we start to cull peoples chances then Universities and such will start to use things to discriminate when, instead, diversity should be embraced. I am so so happy I live in a world in the UK where so many more people are given that chance rather than just a select few "elite" individuals who worry about being devalued if other people get degrees too. Anyone who can complete a degree and who wants to, should be allowed to work for it if they choose to.

P.S. Sorry WWD wasn't even your post I was referring to, just the general idea people have. But thank you, its just one of those things, you don't know its happening but I still wouldn't do anything different :D I haven't read your full post, I am heading out to work I shall when I return!!
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Re: Government Sponsored College Education

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:17 pm

I'm on the UK needs to cull the degrees (50% go to Uni here or that is the target) and greatly improve (which has been a concern since the 1800's apparently) the technical education side of things. We also need to cut the snobbery out of it but we are England, snobbery is what we do.

I don't want uni to be what it was and the danger in slimming it down is it will squeeze the working class because our education system hasn't been fair for years. However 50%? It has become a rite of passage, not a "I'm going to uni to study this to expand my mind" and there are useless courses that just seem to have limited ability to help. Uni shouldn't be a right of passage, it should be where people go to further their minds or their career by expanding their expertise. Perhaps by bringing the levels going to uni, that may help get more into technical education that might benefit and limit the snobbery.

Or if we are going to have 50% going to uni, we need to work out how to fund it but that is such a toxic issue now. Plus the technical education that government will need to fund.
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Re: Government Sponsored College Education

Unread postby FoxWithWings » Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:08 pm

I'm sorry if you thought my entire post was directed at you, it mostly was directed at the concept of culling the numbers of people who want degrees or who want to enter other forms of higher education. Mostly the first line was directed at you because when I was reading it sounded like your were ok with your mum being proud of it but found it useless in others etc but you explained that.


Nah, I didn't think is was all aimed at me. Most of my post was extending off of what you had already said. And besides, I've seen enough of your posts to know that it was not aimed at me, not entirely. You have a tendency to first address individual quotes, and then go on about the topic in general, or a separate concept.

Yes there are plenty of managers who can't manage, nurses that lack the necessary empathy to put patients at ease when they are administrating stuff, teacher who are very proud of their doctorates but aren't very good at passing that knowledge along etc etc. However, that is the role of their employers to address in terms of references and observations. I still honestly don't think it should stop people trying to better themselves.


And I agree.
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Re: Government Sponsored College Education

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:44 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:I'm on the UK needs to cull the degrees (50% go to Uni here or that is the target) and greatly improve (which has been a concern since the 1800's apparently) the technical education side of things. We also need to cut the snobbery out of it but we are England, snobbery is what we do.

I don't want uni to be what it was and the danger in slimming it down is it will squeeze the working class because our education system hasn't been fair for years. However 50%? It has become a rite of passage, not a "I'm going to uni to study this to expand my mind" and there are useless courses that just seem to have limited ability to help. Uni shouldn't be a right of passage, it should be where people go to further their minds or their career by expanding their expertise. Perhaps by bringing the levels going to uni, that may help get more into technical education that might benefit and limit the snobbery.

Or if we are going to have 50% going to uni, we need to work out how to fund it but that is such a toxic issue now. Plus the technical education that government will need to fund.


I agree with this.

I understand Sun Xia's point about anyone who wants the opportunity to study should have it (I'm currently applying to Oxford uni to do a Masters for crying out loud) but my experience of university were that the vast majority of people were there because that was the social expectation on them or because they wanted to be part of the huge party that is student life and not because of the opportunities to learn! Now Lampeter takes an awful lot of it's students through clearance and so it wouldn't be a shock for me to learn that we perhaps have a higher proportion of people than normal who weren't really interested in learning. However ultimately what WWD was saying about the expectation that to be successful you HAVE to have a degree is whats wrong.

If people are passionate about learning than wonderful, if they want to go in to a career that requires a degree (Law, medicine etc) than awesome and that ambition should be encouraged no matter that persons background. What I want to see diminish are those who feel that they have to do a degree in order to make something of themselves without any interest in the actual learning they are doing and actually would rather not go and do a craft instead but don't feel that is socially acceptable.
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