We need Leelah's Law!

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We need Leelah's Law!

Unread postby DreamGoddessLindsey » Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:29 am

I assume everyone knows of the trans-girl who posted her suicide letter on Tumblr before standing in front of a semi to kill herself. Tragic as this is, these suicides are all too common in the trans community.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petiti ... y/QPbYj38G

This is a petition for Leelah's Law to ban all "Conversion Therapy" and make the kind of thing her parents did a crime. This is necessary because this bullying is getting out of hand. Conversion therapy a) defies the scientific method and is not sound medical theory, b) is unethical by the guidelines of the APA, and c) is factually the dictionary definition and medical definition of brainwashing, which violates a person's right to be their own person, making it unconstitutional to be allowed in any way.

It sickens me that this goes on and it sickens me that anyone could support such parents. Hopefully, Obama will see this petition and do something. If Republicans get in the way, he should use an executive order. Something. Anything. :cry:
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Re: We need Leelah's Law!

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:03 pm

DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:I assume everyone knows of the trans-girl who posted her suicide letter on Tumblr before standing in front of a semi to kill herself. Tragic as this is, these suicides are all too common in the trans community.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petiti ... y/QPbYj38G

This is a petition for Leelah's Law to ban all "Conversion Therapy" and make the kind of thing her parents did a crime. This is necessary because this bullying is getting out of hand. Conversion therapy a) defies the scientific method and is not sound medical theory, b) is unethical by the guidelines of the APA, and c) is factually the dictionary definition and medical definition of brainwashing, which violates a person's right to be their own person, making it unconstitutional to be allowed in any way.



I'm strongly opposed to any 'conversion therapy', but any law would need to be narrowly constructed to tackle this issue. I know there have been successful bans of this sort of thing in California and New Jersey but these have been relegated to the use of the practice by licensed mental health professional who care for minors. I'm not sure the same could be said for adults, as it can be a voluntary choice. The best way, I'd think, to ban this sort of thing would be through regulatory bodies. I'm curious how it could be done for non-licensed practitioners, like religious groups. Either way, I don't think a constitutional issue is at play here. Just for note too, the Constitution doesn't list 'right to be their own person' as a constitutional right. Lets be careful when throwing around rights.
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Re: We need Leelah's Law!

Unread postby James » Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:03 pm

I'm actually for an implementation of something resembling Leelah's Law. I definitely appreciate the legal complexities as outlined above by Shikanosuke, and I'll also note that I won't be able to address or comprehend them so eloquently. But these 'therapies' have been demonstrably destructive on psychological and physical levels (depending on the system used), are founded on broken 'science', and are, in every case I've seen, proposed to 'patients' through misleading/fabricated context.

Realistically speaking, whatever may be done would have to fall within the context of existing medical law. It could be made illegal for licensed practitioners but I can never imagine something like a 'therapy' program within a religion being targeted by federal law. And of course there's the matter of what would or would not be possible through Congress in the first place.
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Re: We need Leelah's Law!

Unread postby DreamGoddessLindsey » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:19 am

Perhaps religion should be outright banned from practicing religion and medicine together. The more I see of religion, the more destructive they are in every single case. I don't really care how it gets banned as long as it does. Either by Congress, Obama, the Supreme Court, or anyhow else.

The way I'd structure the law is that anything even resembling conversion therapy would be expressly forbidden. Then the government should spend money on propaganda commercials (using the truth for once) to shame people who do conversion therapy and publicly shame people who support it. Once we've turned public opinion on them, the rest will be much easier.
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Re: We need Leelah's Law!

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:42 am

DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:Perhaps religion should be outright banned from practicing religion and medicine together.


Therapy isn't really hard science. Counseling especially not. To attempt to ban religious organizations from counseling their members or having programs to do would not only be nonsensical, but it would be overreaching and unconstitutional. Furthermore, many of the leading hospitals are religious organizations.


The more I see of religion, the more destructive they are in every single case.


First see above about religious hospitals. Second, this is nonsense. Religion is often one of pillars of charity and societal motivator.

I don't really care how it gets banned as long as it does. Either by Congress, Obama, the Supreme Court, or anyhow else.


I believe this.

The way I'd structure the law is that anything even resembling conversion therapy would be expressly forbidden. Then the government should spend money on propaganda commercials (using the truth for once) to shame people who do conversion therapy and publicly shame people who support it. Once we've turned public opinion on them, the rest will be much easier.


Look, I think its nonsense to think you can 'pray away the gay' or even will yourself into heterosexuality. Its bunk. But to act like the federal government has a stance to take on the issue is also nonsensical to me. Private and religious organizations are free to believe whatever silliness they wish to.
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Re: We need Leelah's Law!

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:01 am

First off, conversion 'therapy' is wrong. As Clark Carlton says here, there is the danger of the 'therapies' overriding the will of the patient, and there is the danger of the 'therapies' misunderstanding the therapeutic needs of the patient. Such 'therapies' are counterproductive and often harmful, since they offer false hope.

That said, I have the exact same objections to transsexualism as I do to female genital mutilation and anorexia. Mutilating and deforming one's own body in order to conform to a preconceived notion of sexual desirability and consumption habits is highly pitiable, and the people who encourage such things ought to be censured if not prosecuted for child abuse. Certainly young children ought not to be taught to hate their own bodies, or to think of their own bodies as something dirty, disgusting or alien to them! And if transsexualism teaches one thing, it is that the body is dirty and alien, and that bending the body through self-directed violence to the needs of the mind is something to be encouraged.

Reading the suicide letter made me feel grief and anger and shame. I'm grieved that this poor child's parents apparently only managed to convince him that he was sinful, rather than to love his own body for what it was. I'm angry that he had to go through the kind of mean-spirited ostracism that all of us have had to go through at school, and that it was compounded by his parents' misguided discipline techniques. And I'm ashamed to belong to a society that let him hate his own body so much that he thought self-mutilation and self-murder were the only options available to him, at the age of seventeen. He was barely at the age of consent - I find it mystifying, this notion that he could even consent to any sexual identity other than that which he was born with before the age of sixteen.

DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:The way I'd structure the law is that anything even resembling conversion therapy would be expressly forbidden. Then the government should spend money on propaganda commercials (using the truth for once) to shame people who do conversion therapy and publicly shame people who support it. Once we've turned public opinion on them, the rest will be much easier.


So your solution to individual brainwashing is... mass brainwashing. Got it.

Opinion duly noted for forwarding to the circular file.
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Re: We need Leelah's Law!

Unread postby DreamGoddessLindsey » Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:18 am

It's the best idea I can think of. People in this country are staggeringly susceptible to such stuff. We need to get everyone to realize that conversion therapy is, factually speaking, quite harmful. We can't do that without spreading the word. It's not brainwashing if it's fact.
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Re: We need Leelah's Law!

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:39 pm

DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:It's the best idea I can think of. People in this country are staggeringly susceptible to such stuff. We need to get everyone to realize that conversion therapy is, factually speaking, quite harmful. We can't do that without spreading the word. It's not brainwashing if it's fact.


I could be off here, but I'm pretty sure conversion therapy is already viewed by the general public as dangerous. So at least there is that.
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Re: We need Leelah's Law!

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:35 pm

I would support a ban on conversion therapy.

However I can understand why a political leader wouldn't do it and my one concern (assuming it is done properly) is what happens after the ban goes into effect. I doubt the parents will suddenly go "well then, I accept homosexuality" and changing the mindset will take years, even decades (even with a government camapign, which could backfire). What will the parents and so on do to their children? How does the government prepare for the consequences?
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Re: We need Leelah's Law!

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:54 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:I would support a ban on conversion therapy.

However I can understand why a political leader wouldn't do it and my one concern (assuming it is done properly) is what happens after the ban goes into effect. I doubt the parents will suddenly go "well then, I accept homosexuality" and changing the mindset will take years, even decades (even with a government camapign, which could backfire). What will the parents and so on do to their children? How does the government prepare for the consequences?


You bring up a good point, as the problem doesn't always lie with the organization doing the therapy but by whom and why it is requested. Even if we ban organizations and professionals from doing such therapy, this doesnt (as you indicate) mean parents will suddenly stop trying to train children not to be homosexual, condition them so, or engage in 'pray away' tactics. Making such attempts illegal is not plausible, and should more appropriately be addressed by changing societal attitudes.
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