Why do so many people support the Ferguson Police?

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Why do so many people support the Ferguson Police?

Unread postby DreamGoddessLindsey » Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:44 am

Topic.

This is ridiculous. I totally support the rioters and I'd be doing it right alongside them were I there. It is an affront to human rights that the murderous bastard is not going to fry on the electric chair for what he did.

As they say...

No justice, no peace. I agree.

Logically, I can't find any reason to support the cops. They are running roughshod over human rights all over the country. Honestly, I think only morally bankrupt people would be capable of supporting such wicked people. Why, then, are the majority of people supporting the cops? Is America really so apathetic and horrid that we're willing to look the other way for murder now?

I'm ashamed to be an American and wish so much that I could get out of this hellhole.
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Re: Why do so many people support the Ferguson Police?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:35 am

I find it fascinating the difference between England and America. Over here if a Policeman shots anyone, even if they are guilty and carrying a gun there seems to be a huge outrage at cop violence whereas in America they seem to be able to use guns a lot more liberally and get away with it.

Somewhere, some system must have found the sensible middle ground?
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Why do so many people support the Ferguson Police?

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:56 am

DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:Topic.

This is ridiculous. I totally support the rioters and I'd be doing it right alongside them were I there.


Of course you do. There's nothing more productive than supporting/watching a community damage and tear itself apart. Watching innocent people have their property destroyed and watching innocents be put in harms way while opportunists and participants alike descend into mob mentality madness.

It is an affront to human rights that the murderous bastard is not going to fry on the electric chair for what he did.


Which human right is that? And I like how you've already decided he's guilty without hearing the evidence.


Logically, I can't find any reason to support the cops. They are running roughshod over human rights all over the country.


And here we are once again a generalization station, next stop witchhuntville. People support the police for two simple reasons here. Some haven't adjudicated them all one unit and all guilty. For another, police are necessary.

Honestly, I think only morally bankrupt people would be capable of supporting such wicked people.


Here we are not only clumping all police together as 'wicked people' but clumping all supporters as 'morally bankrupt'. This is wedged up next to not being able to see any other side of the issue.

Why, then, are the majority of people supporting the cops? Is America really so apathetic and horrid that we're willing to look the other way for murder now?


Probably because they don't support lawlessness and due process has been served. The evidence has been presented to a grand jury and it has decided the weight of the physical evidence didn't merit going to trial. Ergo it didn't believe murder had been committed. Most people are wiling to accept that. Others have decided they know all the facts because Ya know. Internet.

I'm ashamed to be an American and wish so much that I could get out of this hellhole.


head on over to kickstarter. I'm sure we can crowd fund a trip. I heard Thailand is wonderful ?

But seriously I'm ashamed too. I'm ashamed we have such heavy handed police with no appropriate safeguards (bodycamS). I'm ashamed we have such violence. I'm also ashamed we have no respect for the rule of law that we act like animals when juries of our peers make decisions we don't want.
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Re: Why do so many people support the Ferguson Police?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:43 pm

DGL, trying starting topics without attacking the opposing view as the views of pure evil right from the start.

Like this:
Honestly, I think only morally bankrupt people would be capable of supporting such wicked people.


It starts off the topic by making it hostile for people to speak freely and sends red flags about potential flaming, it makes also clear your not interested in any view other then your own. It is a dreadful way to start a topic

====

I'm ashamed to be an American and wish so much that I could get out of this hellhole.


Have you look at other countries records with police? This is far from an American only problem

I haven't been following the Ferguson issue for awhile so I'll confine myself to general comments.

Rejection of trials: This seems a growing trend to me. The jury doesn't find the way someone wants, slag them and the whole system off. I don't know how much of that is simply generational change, the belief that one knows everything about things, and how much is also a loss of faith in the system. I think the jury system in the UK is flawed, probably broken, and we may need to go for another system but I'm not sure, say, three judges will have any more faith from the public.

Why do people/the public at large trust the police: People may know individual policeman and like them or have good experiences with the police but it is awfully hard for the police to manage to lose public trust outside a few areas of society. It was amazing how much bad things in the space of a few months it took for the British police to be badly damaged. Anyway it seems ingrained in society and public image that the police, not always the most intelligent, are good and reliable people, their word can be extremely damaging to a person. Partly cultural issue ingrained while young but also perhaps the need for safety and security, the sense of law and order. To say the police are more then a few bad apples is to say law and order, the basic running of society, is in peril and that is quite scary.
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Re: Why do so many people support the Ferguson Police?

Unread postby James » Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:54 pm

I guess I can randomly speak to a few points.

First off, the Ferguson protesters include many people who have taken advantage of that ruling to do horrible things. There's the theft, vandalism of their community and businesses, and looting. The people behind acts such as that are, simply put, self-serving criminals. Those acts portray the protesters as a group inundated with criminals. And then there's the lot who focused their anger on authorities, for example by burning a police car. They're undermining the efforts of their protest by turning to crime and it, just as surely, portrays the group as inundated with criminals and sours national support of their cause.

I very much support the peaceful protesters in that group, and very much disdain some of the tactics Ferguson police and authorities have used to handle them, but there's no supporting a group as a whole which just turned to these crimes in light of news that Darren Wilson will not be indicted.

Why do people support the police? Because police are charged with upholding law and order. Many know police and know they are good people. Many have had only relatively positive encounters with them. Many recognize that although there are bad police out there—there will be bad people in any organization comprised of humans—those people should not be allowed to speak to the nature of all police in the nation (or beyond). There are plenty who feel differently. But each has their own life experiences and views to draw upon and any extreme here is going to fall short of the truth.

As for Darren Wilson, I personally believe corroborated testimony from individual witnesses sufficiently suggests that he profiled and antagonized Michael Brown. But what exactly happened? We do not know. It sounds like plenty of evidence which the nation has not had a chance to consider played a role in that indictment hearing and I sincerely hope that they will side in favor of transparency and release more information to the public. People who want to say they know exactly what happened here are effectively subjecting Michael Brown and/or Darren Wilson to jury by social media. We don't have the full story, and I'd go so far as to say the system represents shortcomings in limiting the story we have access to.

And indictment of police officers? Here's a major problem, and this might also play a role in what evidence they choose to share. It is extremely rare for a police officer to be indicted for a major crime like shooting and killing an unarmed man. Prosecutors won't typically go forward unless the evidence is overwhelming enough that they believe they can press their case with no reasonable doubt. A jury is far more likely to rule in favor of a police officer than it is a civilian, and far more likely to take a police officer at their word than they are a civilian. A police officer will not be charged in many scenarios where a civilian would be. In matters of he said/she said, the police officer will win. You can find cases like this were there is evidence that looks quite damning, but doesn't add up sufficiently for indiction or prosecution. In my opinion, the system is flawed, but one shouldn't take from such a notion that most police shootings are unjustified.

What I really would like to see is widespread and consistent use of dash cams and body cams. It would allow justifiable shootings to be properly documented, helping to reduce the probability of what is taking place in Ferguson. And it would both foster and reinforce honesty in cases where the shooting was justifiable.

Sun Fin wrote:I find it fascinating the difference between England and America. Over here if a Policeman shots anyone, even if they are guilty and carrying a gun there seems to be a huge outrage at cop violence whereas in America they seem to be able to use guns a lot more liberally and get away with it.

Part of this is the prevalence of guns in the United States. The ease with which someone can arm themselves with one (with relatively little to no training), the ease with which criminals can obtain one, the typically non-existent tracking and registration system behind them. In the United States police are far more likely to encounter a gun than they are in countries with far stricter controls on firearms so the rules of engagement (must necessarily, in my opinion, unless something changes) allow for police to better protect themselves. That doesn't excuse shooting an unarmed man, being too quick to shoot someone based on body language alone, or any number of other things we've seen.
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Re: Why do so many people support the Ferguson Police?

Unread postby DreamGoddessLindsey » Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:02 am

Most of what you said supports my point, James. They are supposed to uphold law and order, yet they are corrupt. The system is supposed to be just, but it isn't. What have the previous peaceful protests accomplished? Nothing. When peace fails, violence is the only recourse.
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Re: Why do so many people support the Ferguson Police?

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:21 am

DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:Most of what you said supports my point, James. They are supposed to uphold law and order, yet they are corrupt.


Unless you plan to support blatant generalizations you're pretty much just talking trash.



When peace fails, violence is the only recourse.


Your stance is dangerous and irresponsible. Not only because it relies on violence, but because you support unguided mob violence which isn't even directed at the perceived source of the issue. Rather, it's directed at innocent bystanders and communities. It screams to be exploited by opportunists and at the end of the day it makes the movement you purport to support appear as criminals.
Last edited by Shikanosuke on Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why do so many people support the Ferguson Police?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:04 am

James wrote:And indictment of police officers? Here's a major problem, and this might also play a role in what evidence they choose to share. It is extremely rare for a police officer to be indicted for a major crime like shooting and killing an unarmed man. Prosecutors won't typically go forward unless the evidence is overwhelming enough that they believe they can press their case with no reasonable doubt. A jury is far more likely to rule in favor of a police officer than it is a civilian, and far more likely to take a police officer at their word than they are a civilian. A police officer will not be charged in many scenarios where a civilian would be. In matters of he said/she said, the police officer will win. You can find cases like this were there is evidence that looks quite damning, but doesn't add up sufficiently for indiction or prosecution.


I agree with you about that. I would also add that, like most organized bodies (political parties, sports teams, unions) the reaction to a scandal is to close ranks against the outside world and given the importance of the police and the type of issues which leads to wagon circling, that is a major issue

What I really would like to see is widespread and consistent use of dash cams and body cams. It would allow justifiable shootings to be properly documented, helping to reduce the probability of what is taking place in Ferguson. And it would both foster and reinforce honesty in cases where the shooting was justifiable.


That is something I'm hoping to happen here actually though I think some are perhaps over-egging it's abilities to cure issues.

Sun Fin wrote:I find it fascinating the difference between England and America. Over here if a Policeman shots anyone, even if they are guilty and carrying a gun there seems to be a huge outrage at cop violence whereas in America they seem to be able to use guns a lot more liberally and get away with it.


James wrote:Part of this is the prevalence of guns in the United States. The ease with which someone can arm themselves with one (with relatively little to no training), the ease with which criminals can obtain one, the typically non-existent tracking and registration system behind them. In the United States police are far more likely to encounter a gun than they are in countries with far stricter controls on firearms so the rules of engagement (must necessarily, in my opinion, unless something changes) allow for police to better protect themselves. That doesn't excuse shooting an unarmed man, being too quick to shoot someone based on body language alone, or any number of other things we've seen.


I think part of it, due to widespread use of guns, American police have long had guns so people are used to it, it makes sense and perhaps used to mistakes/shootings. In the UK, due to lack of guns, the police aren't seen to need it and so, while we acknowledge there needs to be specialized units, there is a bit of unease when those units are called in. It feels alien.

Also the shooting and attempted cover up of innocent man after 7/7 did a lot of damage and led to mass distrust.
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Re: Why do so many people support the Ferguson Police?

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:05 am

I can't bring myself to support the cops in this case either. Institutional closing of ranks to hide the truth of a crime, no matter what the cost to innocent people, is something which rankles too deeply with me.

It wasn't enough that Michael Brown had to die at the hands of a cold-blooded and unrepentant cop. The protesters had to be silenced with whatever excessive force the police could get away with bringing to bear, and the church which was supporting his family had to be burned down (one presumes, by Darren Wilson's supporters who had been threatening to do so for months before).

It wasn't enough that the CIA was complicit in aiding and abetting cocaine traffickers into the United States for geopolitical reasons - they had to destroy the reputation and the life of the journalist who broke the story. It wasn't enough that the US armed forces were shown to be wantonly destroying innocent lives in Iraq - Private Manning had to be prosecuted and gaoled. It wasn't enough that the wrongdoings of the NSA had to be exposed - Edward Snowden had to be pursued. It wasn't enough that the US government had to bring down the Yanukovych government behind the scenes only to have the attempt blow up in their faces - Russia has to be blamed for everything that has happened in the Ukraine since: all the innocents who got burned to death in Odessa by the American-backed government, all the churches shelled, the two thousand civilians murdered by the Ukrainian army and the half-million refugees who have fled into Russia.

It's a familiar theme these days.
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Re: Why do so many people support the Ferguson Police?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:42 am

WWD, I'm unsure if your simply using American examples or you think this is mostly an American problem?
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