Why do so many people support the Ferguson Police?

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Re: Why do so many people support the Ferguson Police?

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:49 pm

James wrote:So, there's this. In this article 'witness 40' is discussed, outed as Sandra McElroy and associated with key evidence in the case. Not sure what to make of it myself as TSG clearly has an entertainment end, but from what I've seen in the past they do dig up real documents. Anybody familiar with them beyond the basic details in the Wikipedia article?


I... honestly don't know what to make of that. It isn't something that would surprise me - people have fabricated eyewitness accounts before even in sworn testimony. But yes, certainly consider the source. To be honest, I only know about TSG from World's Dumbest Criminals, so I wouldn't be the best person to ask about its credibility... :P

James wrote:You mentioned the previously existing efforts to achieve this same goal. It's nice that this round seems to have more teeth, but if it's not enforced I'm not sure how much better off we'll be in terms of having real statistics...

I mean, I hope it is enforced. I guess I'm becoming a little cynical.


I agree with you there. And like I said, even if it did get enforced, it would only be a start - a measure useful really only for preliminary information-gathering. Any further action would require sustained scrutiny of those data, followed by sustained activism on victims' behalf.

I would like to think that there is a 'national moment' that can be leveraged here.
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Re: Why do so many people support the Ferguson Police?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:05 pm

A few things from DGL's last post, if anyone thinks certain points are out of line to bring up then I'll edit them out.

As for the subject, let's look at it another. Look at all the celebrities that commit grievous crimes. Lindsay Lohan, Teresa Giudice, OJ, any number of them really. If I committed any of those crimes and put up the exact same defenses with the exact same lawyers, I'd still end up in prison.


Strike the exact same defence (different circumstances=different defence) but yes, being a celeb does seem to give leeway compared even to the rich. This is a society issue as well as a legal issue, not much the legal system can do if jury is more inclined to let celebrities off for example.

It is an issue the UK has had to face up to in very nasty ways in last year.

When I say to come down hard on cops, I don't mean kill them all. You need to separate my emotions from my thinking.


The problem is, I can only go on what you write to know what you think. If one constantly says something on a forum, I assume they think it. I hope that helps in future
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Re: Why do so many people support the Ferguson Police?

Unread postby bodidley » Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:18 pm

Shikanosuke wrote:For another, police are necessary.


Now there's a more interesting topic for debate.
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Re: Why do so many people support the Ferguson Police?

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:14 pm

bodidley wrote:
Shikanosuke wrote:For another, police are necessary.


Now there's a more interesting topic for debate.


Not sure how to take that comment. If you're serious saying it'd be interesting as a theoretical excercise then ok. If you're suggesting it as a plausible idea then I'd say it'd only be an interesting debate some philosophical salon where libertarian ideas are tossed around for good humor. But you'd be hard pressed to find real debate on the issue of law enforcement being necessary.
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Re: Why do so many people support the Ferguson Police?

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Sun Dec 21, 2014 6:05 am

This is utterly disgraceful.

This kind of vigilantism solves nothing. It will only create further hostilities between the police and the people they serve, and it only lends credence to the kind of thinking that perpetuates 'shoot first, ask questions later' policies when apprehending suspects who are supposed to be a threat. Make no mistake, this sets back a lot of the progress that could have been made with regard to police reviewing their own policies, and will create a tremendous amount of backlash against legitimate criticisms of police behaviour.

That having been said, though, vigilantism and protests aren't the same thing. Even if the motives are the same, the goals and the methods clearly aren't, and that ought to be made clear.
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Re: Why do so many people support the Ferguson Police?

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Sun Dec 21, 2014 6:02 pm

WeiWenDi wrote:This is utterly disgraceful.

This kind of vigilantism solves nothing. It will only create further hostilities between the police and the people they serve, and it only lends credence to the kind of thinking that perpetuates 'shoot first, ask questions later' policies when apprehending suspects who are supposed to be a threat. Make no mistake, this sets back a lot of the progress that could have been made with regard to police reviewing their own policies, and will create a tremendous amount of backlash against legitimate criticisms of police behaviour.

That having been said, though, vigilantism and protests aren't the same thing. Even if the motives are the same, the goals and the methods clearly aren't, and that ought to be made clear.



Couldn't concur more WWD. I don't know if I should be paying attention to this or not but seemingly both of the officers who were murdered were of minorities demographics as well.
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Re: Why do so many people support the Ferguson Police?

Unread postby James » Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:30 pm

WeiWenDi wrote:This is utterly disgraceful. This kind of vigilantism solves nothing. [...]

Well, given he shot his girlfriend, and his history as a violent criminal, the 'vigilantism' label he might have suggested by framing his murder as revenge or activism is only skin deep, so to say. He's just a cowardly murderer. And the relatively small pool of people who are trying to attribute blame here, like Pat Lynch pinning it on protesters and Bill de Blasio, are just ass hats and opportunists.

If blame can be assigned anywhere it would be to the media, but some things really should be covered. Even if a lot of that coverage has been irresponsible.
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Re: Why do so many people support the Ferguson Police?

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:51 pm

Figured with the wake of 'cops can never be charged' and general disappointment with the grand jury system this would be welcome news to many (including myself)
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Re: Why do so many people support the Ferguson Police?

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:56 am

Two Ferguson policemen were shot during a protest there - one in the face and one in the shoulder. Both officers are still alive and conscious, but they have apparently sustained 'serious injuries'. The Brown family has issued, in response, a strongly-worded condemnation of the violence against the police. (Kudos to them!)

I really feel like I have to amend somewhat my stance on the police as given here and elsewhere. Ultimately, policemen aren't stock villains, and in a way it's way too easy and convenient, to blame them for problems endemic to the structure they're supposed to represent and uphold. They're more often than not ordinary people with ordinary lives, facing ordinary struggles - the problem is when these ordinary people are given extraordinary powers and expected to show extraordinary restraint with their use. Here is an excerpt from an Obama speech on the Ferguson police department, cited here:

Barack Obama wrote:What we saw was that the Ferguson Police Department, in conjunction with the municipality, saw traffic stops, arrests, tickets as a revenue generator, as opposed to serving the community, and that it systematically was biased against African-Americans in that city who were stopped, harassed, mistreated, abused, called names, fined.


Actually, I'm more inclined to blame the municipality than the police department. Sure, the police department has to carry out the policy and they're the ones with whom black people have to interact more, they are the ones who pose the most bodily risk to black people, but the ultimate problem is that the local and state governments at least are depending on revenue generated from stops, arrests and tickets. This creates an incentives problem - police are rewarded for treating as criminals citizens who haven't done anything wrong, in order to fill the pockets of City Hall. Obviously, I'm not a libertarian. I'm not going to say that policing is inherently bad or that it can't be done well. But something has to be done to address the root problem of greed that underlines this particular policy. And it should be done without demonising either black men, or white men in blue uniforms. Both of whom are more sinned against than sinning in this case.
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