Do you think the PATRIOT Act will ever get repealed?

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Re: Do you think the PATRIOT Act will ever get repealed?

Unread postby DreamGoddessLindsey » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:23 pm

You will never ever convince me that a) their duties are vital (seeing as they haven't made us safer) or b) there is ever a reason to search some little white baby or crippled person's wheelchair. Never gonna happen. They haven't proven themselves mature for their job, and they certainly haven't proven themselves "vital" to security. Everything was fine before the TSA (except for 9/11 of course) and things would still be fine without them.

The fact that this has happened, as I said, proves the terrorists have won. They wanted to instill an irrational fear and they succeeded.
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Re: Do you think the PATRIOT Act will ever get repealed?

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:14 pm

DreamGoddessLindsey wrote: You will never ever convince me


Ma'am, your response is a tad underwhelming as you've engaged with almost nothing I've said.

that a) their duties are vital (seeing as they haven't made us safer)


Security is always vital. This was apparent even before 9-11, perhaps had we realized this we wouldn't be in said situation. If you think security wasn't vital prior to TSA's establishment then you're ignoring that security firms were always hired, security is always an issue, and that we've had terrorist attacks prior to 9-11. TSA merely took over what was previously contracted out.

or b) there is ever a reason to search some little white baby or crippled person's wheelchair. Never gonna happen.


A) Does it matter if its a white baby? I don't think color matters. B) There is reason to search anyone and everything that could contain explosives or any kind of weapon or device. If you think people in wheelchairs or children are incapable of being or using weapons you should look more closely at terror tactics.

They haven't proven themselves mature for their job, and they certainly haven't proven themselves "vital" to security.


I don't really understand the first part of the sentence. There are thousands of TSA agents who execute their duties everyday without complaint. To malign them because you've seen some YouTube videos or news articles about individual situations is essentially being an internet armchair general. Have you flown in the past ten years? Were you accosted, beaten, groped? I certainly wasn't and neither has anyone I know who flies.

As for the last sentence you seem to fail to understand, they are the vital part. Them and intelligence.

Everything was fine before the TSA (except for 9/11 of course) and things would still be fine without them.


Pretty awesome statement. For one, it ignores the crux of the problem. That security firms and TSA are not different, TSA simply has stricter policies after 9-11. Secondly the sentence is essentially reads 'everything was fine before that thing where three air planes were hijacked and 3,000+ people died'. That itself should prove the need for additional security. It also ignores that TSA isn't just in charge of airports. They're in charge of nearly all transportation inside the continental United States. That means railroads, roadways, subways, etc. Yet you malign the huge agency because you disagree with some of their policies?

Furthermore, why does the buck stop with the TSA? Why not place the blame on those in charge of the TSA like the Department of Homeland Defense?

The fact that this has happened, as I said, proves the terrorists have won. They wanted to instill an irrational fear and they succeeded.


Yea, that doesn't logically follow. Nor is our fear irrational. Nor, had we not implemented the Patriot Act, would the fear not exist. It still would, and if we didn't act on it we'd be considered derelict in protecting citizens.
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Re: Do you think the PATRIOT Act will ever get repealed?

Unread postby DreamGoddessLindsey » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:23 am

Sorry, not gonna quote, just speak.

I have flown, in 2008. It was a nightmare. They even went so far as to make everyone take off their shoes to run through a separate security check. I was wearing sandals. On top of that, I got patted down even though I didn't set the metal detector off. It was humiliating and made me not want to fly ever again as long as these jerkoffs were around. I hate the TSA and I hate everything in the Patriot Act. Everything. There is not a single word of it that I'd keep if I had the chance to set things right.

We live in such abstract terror that we allow our rights to privacy and not be hassled to be taken away almost completely in the name of "national defense" and "security", which means they won.

I never said security wasn't important, just not this level of security. You need multiple forms of identification even to open a bank account or a PO Box. This is absolutely ridiculous. It's not worth it. 9/11 didn't prove we needed more security, it just proved that any amount of security can be breached.

I'm just so sick of giving up liberty in the name of abstract defense that can't even be properly measured.

P.S. Yep, it's a rant. I'll make sure not to take anything personally, thus keeping the peace.
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Re: Do you think the PATRIOT Act will ever get repealed?

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:41 pm

DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:Sorry, not gonna quote, just speak.

I have flown, in 2008. It was a nightmare. They even went so far as to make everyone take off their shoes to run through a separate security check. I was wearing sandals. On top of that, I got patted down even though I didn't set the metal detector off. It was humiliating and made me not want to fly ever again as long as these jerkoffs were around.


Well, for starters I'm sorry you had a bad experience. However, I have to admit that that really doesn't sound absurd or a 'nightmare' (not that you dont have a right to feel however you wish to feel about a situation). With 'shoebombers' being a real deal these days, not crazy they'd ask yall to do that. Having sandals would likely be logical to exempt you from a search but its likely just uniform to ask everyone to do it (typical of agencies and bureaucratic processes).

Can't speak to why you were patted down, but theres certainly some discretion they have. I highly doubt it was done to injure you psychologically. Perhaps its different from individual to individual but I can attest I've been patted down in a variety of venues from bars, sporting events, government offices, prisons, etc. Somehow I've never been patted down in an airport. But my point is (and perhaps its a personal matter) but i never found such pat-downs to be invasive or absurd. They've got a job to do. Metal detectors don't catch everything, and weapons/explosives can be made out of non-metal composites.


I hate the TSA and I hate everything in the Patriot Act. Everything. There is not a single word of it that I'd keep if I had the chance to set things right.


So are we just ignoring the portions I keep mentioning about helping victims/families or do you sincerely believe this provision is bad?

We live in such abstract terror that we allow our rights to privacy and not be hassled to be taken away almost completely in the name of "national defense" and "security", which means they won.


I know this is a rant, as you admit later on, but you're being dramatic way beyond the point of reasonableness. For one, don't reference vague 'rights'. If you have a right, state what it is and where it is. For another, we don't live in some Orwellian police state. I go about my business everyday with almost zero interactions with police or 'authority' hassling me. I drive between cities and am not subject to unreasonable searches. I fly often and am rarely delayed or detained for more than 30 seconds (usually takes longer to take off belt/shoes or waiting in line than getting through the actual security). My rights aren't being trampled, and I use my freedoms every day despite the Patriot Act.

With all due respect, there are alot of potential things to throw at the Patriot Act that even I will agree with. Specifically the authority the government is given (in certain circumstances) to execute searches and detain certain individuals which could potentially run afoul of certain amendments (and as I've noted without repercussion or oversight). But the concerns you're articulating are not these. They seem to be mostly personal animosity towards something which derives from you being inconvenienced when getting on a plane or getting a P.O. Box.

I never said security wasn't important, just not this level of security.


No, but your sentiments have almost explicitly implied this.

You need multiple forms of identification even to open a bank account or a PO Box.


And this is pretty standard practice nowadays, not just for government things. Identify Theft is a real deal. With how much information out there, most companies will also want to protect themselves. If I was a bank I'd definitely want more than your driver's license to open an account.

This is absolutely ridiculous. It's not worth it. 9/11 didn't prove we needed more security, it just proved that any amount of security can be breached.


For one, is it really ridiculous? The fact that you have to bring two forms of ID to the post office instead of one somehow transcends whatever level from normal to absurd?

Secondly, while I agree it is certainly truth that all forms of security may be breached, that fatalistic fact is not the lesson to be derived from a breach. Following that logic is essentially 'why try to fix if it can just be breached?'. A more productive and responsible approache is 'we failed, how do we fix it?'. That is what acts like the Patriot Act (and others) are. Are they perfect? Certainly not. Were some of the responses opportunistic/knee-jerk? I have little doubt.

I'm just so sick of giving up liberty in the name of abstract defense that can't even be properly measured.


I'd suggest spending time in a country with real lack of liberties and government oppression. It would change your opinion of the freedom we enjoy here and put things in perspective. Americans are terrible about being upset by something, claiming a violation of their freedoms/rights, and declaring we live in a police state. Few of us have visited any other country or lived under anything less free than what we enjoy.

P.S. Yep, it's a rant. I'll make sure not to take anything personally, thus keeping the peace.


Accepted and I'm glad you are making that choice. Nothing I've said above should indicate I'm upset with you or that I'm trying to personally attack you. I can assure you I'm doing neither. I certainly don't have a monopoly on opinions regarding the Patriot Act/TSA/National Security and the balance therein. Also I fully acknowledge (and most here will attest) I have a certain bent towards favoring security concerns which is in the minority in our lovely community. So hope all is continued to be taken in the spirit of lively discourse and not anger. Never let an ol curmudgeon like me dampen/diminish your day/attitude! :D
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Re: Do you think the PATRIOT Act will ever get repealed?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:38 pm

I never said security wasn't important, just not this level of security. You need multiple forms of identification even to open a bank account or a PO Box. This is absolutely ridiculous.


I don't know about a PO Box but I would be alarmed if my bank didn't require multiple ID documents before something major like opening a bank account.

Having said that, everyone's wish for paperless billing does make it hard to get the required ID sometimes.
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Re: Do you think the PATRIOT Act will ever get repealed?

Unread postby Ranbir » Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:38 pm

It won't get repealed. What the PA gives is a perception that US authorities have been given greater powers to counter-terrorism, despite them being prove to have been ineffective and unnecessary. But the facts don't matter, its the -perception-.

It is actually excessive to check shoes, but the perception it creates when people see shoes being checked is: "oh, they're doing something, it must be working". But that's why we call it the Security Theatre.
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Re: Do you think the PATRIOT Act will ever get repealed?

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:56 pm

The USA PATRIOT Act is, as I believe the technical term has it, a total FUBAR. It is a kludge of many different laws and amendments to laws that taken together constitute a sweeping overhaul of our national policing structures and justice system. I think most sane Americans would say that, in its original form, was an intolerable overreach. But I also think there are parts of the PATRIOT Act that are worth keeping and even expanding upon.

Things which should be kept would be things like the reform of FISA and the FISA court system to give out general warrants against foreign threats to the homeland. Now, done correctly, FISA is incredibly useful - the problems recently uncovered by Snowden show, though, that other government agencies tend to either abuse or do endruns around the system. Perhaps some reform is in order here to give FISA more teeth, to a.) make other intelligence and security services more accountable to it and b.) to make FISA's new general warrants power more accountable to the Supreme Court.

Other things like giving the FBI preventative mandates (prior to a crime being committed) as well as investigative and prosecuting ones (after the fact) probably might rankle and rub certain civil libertarians the wrong way, but I think the data will show that the FBI's expanded mandate has been effective in preventing some very serious crimes from being committed.

Things which have to go would be the provisions subjecting civilians to secret military tribunals (with the potential for the death penalty without the normal appeals process), and those allowing civilians to be classified as 'enemy combatants' essentially at the pleasure of the Executive. The creation of a new category of penalties for those lending 'material support' to said 'enemy combatants' was additionally troubling, in large part because it is so amorphous and has the potential to lead to unjust legal persecution of people who are essentially bystanders. (For example, do you arrest the owner of a hardware store who unknowingly sold a timer or a radio to a terrorist who then made a bomb with it?) The whole 'see something, say something' initiative started under USA PATRIOT also seems also to be ripe for abuse and potentially destructive to civil society.

As for the TSA, I really can't blame them. A lot of TSA people are very clearly working-class blokes (and blokettes) who do an unpleasant, thankless job with not a lot of equipment, support or confidence.

Anyway, just my tuppence on the OP.
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Re: Do you think the PATRIOT Act will ever get repealed?

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:30 am

WeiWenDi wrote:As for the TSA, I really can't blame them. A lot of TSA people are very clearly working-class blokes (and blokettes) who do an unpleasant, thankless job with not a lot of equipment, support or confidence.


Amen.
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Re: Do you think the PATRIOT Act will ever get repealed?

Unread postby DreamGoddessLindsey » Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:24 am

I see the TSA differently. I see them as normal people who were given way too much power, and that power has corrupted the whole thing.
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