Rape Culture

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Re: Rape Culture

Unread postby bodidley » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:40 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Where did I say it was a poor only problem?


You didn't, and I didn't say you did. But the implication is still there. Broken homes and poor education are symptoms of poverty. That's not to say that people with money don't abuse their children or fail to learn anything in school. Poverty may exacerbate these problems; it is at least associated with them, though associations are not always directly causal. I don't think it's reasonable to say that people with better access to education are less likely to commit rape, or to commit crime in general. Wealthy, educated people commit crime just as poor, uneducated people commit crime; their different circumstances cause the nature of the crimes to be different. In the case of rape, the nature of the crime is not different based on those circumstances.

Dong Zhou wrote:I have known people who, only when they left their childhood area, were able to build a normal sense of morality. Or who only years later realized certain stuff was wrong. If your in a culture where no doesn't mean no and back off, when sex is treated as an almost right, the bells of warning may not be flashing for victim or the rapist. After all, to them, it is normal.


While it's true that people grow and build their ideas of right and wrong, many areas of ethics are totally subjective, rather than "normal." In those cases, while the person might reach a new understanding, it doesn't necessarily mean that the new ideas are objectively better than the old ones. It is true that crime often exists within a social context where people are doing it together. That doesn't mean that they think that what they're doing is right. Like the proverbial honey badger, they just don't give a shit. It's possible that later on they build a sensitivity which did not exist, but that's an emotional process not an intellectual one. In the case of rape, I can't think of a single culture off the top of my head that does not consider rape to be a terrible crime. I think it reaches the point of absurdity to claim that it's possible that anyone in our society might reach sexual maturity without encountering the idea that you shouldn't rape people, then on top of that, to not think while they're raping someone that maybe their victim wouldn't be okay with it.

Dong Zhou wrote:I'm not sure stuff under a skirt counts as in front of someone's eyes though? I assume I'm missing something here bodidley?


You're missing the fact that to bring a viewfinder to eye level and press a shutter release in a public place, anything in front of the camera would have to be in plain view for all to see. This guy was standing on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial, he wasn't hiding underneath a subway grate. It might not be the case in Louisiana, or Sussex, or Belfast, but in New York and many other major cities there happen to be a lot of people walking around baring their naked asses. If they want to do that then fine, but to consider other people criminals for seeing them is totally hypocritical. If someone takes a photo of you walking about as you present yourself in public, in order for that photo to be indecent your appearance has to be indecent in the first place. Then the question becomes, do people have a right to make visual statements about indecent things they see in public? Make all the state laws you want, the precedent for first amendment cases is that photography is a form of protected speech.
Last edited by bodidley on Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rape Culture

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:03 pm

bodidley wrote:I can't think of a single culture off the top of my head that does not consider rape to be a terrible crime. I think it reaches the point of absurdity to claim that it's possible that anyone in our society might reach sexual maturity without encountering the idea that you shouldn't rape people


But I think this is the point, we all know that raping someone on the street is wrong and your right that doesn't stop people from doing it.

However not everyone does know that if you force a girl who you hooked up with on a night out to have sex then you have committed rape. I'd like to think that with proper education those kind of rapes would decrease in number-they won't disappear completely because there will be some people who will do it anyway and as you got at in your post many of those crimes will be committed by rich boys who think they are above the law.
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Re: Rape Culture

Unread postby bodidley » Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:17 pm

Sun Fin wrote:But I think this is the point, we all know that raping someone on the street is wrong and your right that doesn't stop people from doing it.

However not everyone does know that if you force a girl who you hooked up with on a night out to have sex then you have committed rape.


I don't see the difference between forcing someone to have sex and raping them. Could you possibly explain?

Sun Fin wrote:I'd like to think that with proper education those kind of rapes would decrease in number-they won't disappear completely because there will be some people who will do it anyway and as you got at in your post many of those crimes will be committed by rich boys who think they are above the law.


I'd like to think that too, but that doesn't make it so, does it? In the case of discouraging people from having sex with drunk people, I think it helps because consent becomes a dicey issue when someone is intoxicated, although discouraging 20 year-olds from getting drunk and having sex is easier said than done.
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Re: Rape Culture

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:28 pm

I'm not saying there should be a legal distinction, both are without doubt in my mind rape. However if you look at the statistics Dong posted earlier in the thread about the number of men who don't know what is (correctly) defined as rape it becomes fairly easy to see where his argument about education comes in.
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Re: Rape Culture

Unread postby bodidley » Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:33 pm

Sun Fin wrote:I'm not saying there should be a legal distinction, both are without doubt in my mind rape. However if you look at the statistics Dong posted earlier in the thread about the number of men who don't know what is (correctly) defined as rape it becomes fairly easy to see where his argument about education comes in.


My question is sincere, I don't understand how it's possible to make a distinction between the two. Which is why I'm skeptical of the usefulness of those statistics.
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Re: Rape Culture

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:14 pm

bodidley wrote:
Dong Zhou wrote:Where did I say it was a poor only problem?


You didn't, and I didn't say you did. But the implication is still there. Broken homes and poor education are symptoms of poverty. That's not to say that people with money don't abuse their children or fail to learn anything in school. Poverty may exacerbate these problems; it is at least associated with them, though associations are not always directly causal. I don't think it's reasonable to say that people with better access to education are less likely to commit rape, or to commit crime in general. Wealthy, educated people commit crime just as poor, uneducated people commit crime; their different circumstances cause the nature of the crimes to be different. In the case of rape, the nature of the crime is not different based on those circumstances.


I agree that, usually, bad education implies not the top 1%. Does include the middle class in bad education. while money might help the rich avoid this, broken homes can hit all classes.

The rich are more likely to get away with crime perhaps but I agree the wealthy commit crimes, the wealthy commit rape. At no point did I challenge that

While it's true that people grow and build their ideas of right and wrong, many areas of ethics are totally subjective, rather than "normal." In those cases, while the person might reach a new understanding, it doesn't necessarily mean that the new ideas are objectively better than the old ones. It is true that crime often exists within a social context where people are doing it together. That doesn't mean that they think that what they're doing is right. Like the proverbial honey badger, they just don't give a shit.


Just to clarify, by moral system I meant "thou shall not steal" and worse. Or that what they went through was not normal or ok. The basic tenets of pretty much anyone religion or philosophy basically. Not whether they were following Christianity or becoming a Buddhist.

It's possible that later on they build a sensitivity which did not exist, but that's an emotional process not an intellectual one. In the case of rape, I can't think of a single culture off the top of my head that does not consider rape to be a terrible crime. I think it reaches the point of absurdity to claim that it's possible that anyone in our society might reach sexual maturity without encountering the idea that you shouldn't rape people, then on top of that, to not think while they're raping someone that maybe their victim wouldn't be okay with it.


I can easily see how it happens. It has taken a lot of effort (still is in some ways) in education, law and culture so we are now in a place where young ladies at work (or worse) are not free sex/gropes. In England, we are still trying to get rid of several rape myths (like wearing a skirt=gagging for it) that make it hard to convict. I have been in communities and know others who have where various (lesser) crimes are ok becuase it is the culture people know. Those that should be stamping it out don't, nobody points them the right direction and those they do turn to for advice are those in the same culture. I have known victims of horrible crimes who didn't realize what had been done to them till years later, they thought what went on was normal.
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Re: Rape Culture

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:39 pm

bodidley wrote:
Sun Fin wrote:I'm not saying there should be a legal distinction, both are without doubt in my mind rape. However if you look at the statistics Dong posted earlier in the thread about the number of men who don't know what is (correctly) defined as rape it becomes fairly easy to see where his argument about education comes in.


My question is sincere, I don't understand how it's possible to make a distinction between the two. Which is why I'm skeptical of the usefulness of those statistics.



I'm not entirely up to date on the convo here, but I think the idea DZ and Sun Fin were trying to make was that some men do not understand that coercing someone, even casually or verbally, into sex would be rape. I myself have read reports that many rapists, because they didn't use violence or overwhelming force against a victim didn't consider themselves a rapist. Should a distinction be made because of that? No way. But I believe, though I could be wrong, that is what they were getting at? I think they were trying to advocate that more education on the topic of what is rape and what is consent would lead to less rationalizations amongst men that they are not perpetrators of a hideous crime.
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Re: Rape Culture

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:10 pm

Something like that yes.

I imagine most of those students would be appalled at the idea of rape, sickened at the thought that they raped. But mentally, they don't associate what they do (or have done with them) as rape. What they and their friends/circle do is completely normal to them

Education and seeing what they do from the outside, that what they are doing is not normal, does seem to be needed.
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Re: Rape Culture

Unread postby SunXia » Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:55 am

Well am example of a personal experience, I got persuaded by a friend to go to a "house party" that turned out to be just us two and a guy she had a casual relationship with and his cousin in his house!! I have and will always hate house parties but this experience makes it worse!! I dozed off and my friend left to a couple of houses up the street after putting a blanket around me!! I woke up lying on the cousins chest and he subsequently tired it on!! Earlier in the night I had already said no three times to the idea so I was not happy that he had cuddled me when I was vulnerable so I got up to leave!! The house had double glazing so could lock from inside with a key and he had basically done this to both front and back doors and started this pity coercion you know the "I really like you I'm a nice guy why don't you like me" tripe!! He touched me several times to pull me too him and each time I resisted and pulled away and each attempt got more insistent!! I locked myself in the bathroom and so he left and locked the door and went down to the party down the street!! I was left there for 2 hrs with a dead phone trying to get out and the dude returned at 4am and actually had the gall to ask if had changed my mind!! This time, mercifully, he had left the door open and i fled, and was in an area not far from mine but it was unfamiliar I just ran crying down the street until i came to a road i knew and found a taxi depot that were thankfully 24 hr!! The driver was talking to me trying to calm me and realized that he played football with my dad every week so walked me to my door and woke my dad to tell him what happened!! I was so glad to get into my bed and my friend was like "Wow poor dude was so drunk" pitying him for being rejected so I hung up on her and stayed in bed the entirety of the next day!!

Now had I said yes when he returned having been locked in a strange house for hours, would this be considered Rape?? Some would say no as I had consented but it would have been a forced consent against my will and desire!! Now I know this is related to me in a single event but this guy was convinced that if I had just allowed him to kiss me and touch me that I would "feel the park" that he felt and that I was denying our attraction and the idea I was spiting both of us with my denial!! He was utterly convinced of this, it was pitiful and i hope he has never or will never do that to another girl! But where does one go from a situation like that, how do you prevent it from happening to someone else?? It was definitely a terrifying ordeal that I was so angry with my friend over and with myself for acting against my judgment on house parties!! That is, parties after a night in a club!! I'm usually so tired after dancing that I just want to sleep!!
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Re: Rape Culture

Unread postby Ranbir » Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:05 am

That story reminds me of the song "Baby it's cold outside".
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