2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:49 am

Because it is ignorance. Most anti-vaxers are victims of misinformation campaigns. We need religious leaders to be vocal in refuting that bad science and making it clear that those are not the views of the church. However I think that saying ignorance is a sin is a very dangerous line to go down.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:58 pm

Which is fine (if scary that at this point, they may need help to see what else they are ignorant about if they can be ignorant of this despite media, government attention, tradition all going "VACCINATE" and where basic research should make clear the need) initially. However when presented with the evidence, like I said the first step should be about evidence, then how can the ignorance be excused if they still refuse? They would have to be wilfully ignoring the evidence, ignored the experts, medicine, statistics, when then?
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:18 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Which is fine (if scary that at this point, they may need help to see what else they are ignorant about if they can be ignorant of this despite media, government attention, tradition all going "VACCINATE" and where basic research should make clear the need) initially. However when presented with the evidence, like I said the first step should be about evidence, then how can the ignorance be excused if they still refuse? They would have to be wilfully ignoring the evidence, ignored the experts, medicine, statistics, when then?


I kind of have to agree with Dong Zhou here. Balto didn't run diphtheria antitoxin serum to save Nome just so modern suburban soccer moms could refuse to get their kids inoculated with DTAP 100 years later based on urban legends and internet rumours.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Wed May 01, 2019 1:15 am

WeiWenDi wrote:
Dong Zhou wrote:Which is fine (if scary that at this point, they may need help to see what else they are ignorant about if they can be ignorant of this despite media, government attention, tradition all going "VACCINATE" and where basic research should make clear the need) initially. However when presented with the evidence, like I said the first step should be about evidence, then how can the ignorance be excused if they still refuse? They would have to be wilfully ignoring the evidence, ignored the experts, medicine, statistics, when then?


I kind of have to agree with Dong Zhou here. Balto didn't run diphtheria antitoxin serum to save Nome just so modern suburban soccer moms could refuse to get their kids inoculated with DTAP 100 years later based on urban legends and internet rumours.



Sun Fun I actually do get your sentiment on this point, though ultimately I do side with DZ and WWD on this one. Also the Balto bit had me laughing.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed May 01, 2019 8:33 am

Yeah I have been thinking about this a lot over the last 24 hours, your arguments were making sense. So I took my thoughts to the Westminster Confession which interprets the sixth commandment as doing all you can to preserve life which in the end I found compelling. So, if I was confident that reasonable steps had been taken to try convince people in my congregation about the science (ie not just saying your being stupid, but actually sitting down and going through evidence with them - or more realistically finding someone with a better grasp of the science to do that) then I would be willing to call it out as a sin, then go down the discipline route as described by Jesus in Matthew 18.

Also, the animated Balto movie was one of my favourites as a child.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby SunXia » Tue May 14, 2019 1:29 pm

Given people are now getting infected because people are claiming vaccinations are dangerous so refuse to believe the scientific proof, I am on the side of declaring it a Sin too. There are kids/people who cannot have vaccinations due to their immune systems being impaired in some major way and these anti-Vaxxers are harming them and that's against the teachings of Christianity.

Proud of Governments who refuse to let un-vaccinated children (within reason like health) into classrooms because again why should those kids be compromised because of one uninformed parent deciding that their beliefs outweigh science? They have branched over from nuisance to actually hurting people and causing outbreaks to happen. The foot needs to be put down on this.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed May 15, 2019 4:44 pm

I suppose one of the big problems is what one does with such children, not their fault but that they aren't vaccinated makes them a public health threat. How do we ensure they get the education so they know not to repeat the mistakes of their parents? Maybe video technology might help in the future but not there yet
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby SunXia » Wed May 15, 2019 9:53 pm

Honestly, as much as I love kids, what happens to their education is up to their parents as in most cases. It's their fault and quite frankly, the health services need more help considering what these selfish parents have done in adding to the pressure of health services.

It's going to get to the point that they will not be allowed in public venues. And I would support these venues in keeping them out. Its all about Herd immunity and they're compromising that. Outbreaks give diseases a wider chance of mutating and this has just become ridiculous.

I know some rare kids have an allergic reaction but there's that then there's dying from one of these diseases. The only way I can see this moving forward properly is by making injections mandatory because some of these kids will teach their kids the tripe taught to them by their own parents and it will continue to grow.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu May 16, 2019 3:49 pm

The problem is education is key to trying to trying to ensure such stupidity is not repeated down the generations and not fair on kid if his entire life is wrecked by parents. Hopefully we can educate that they start asking questions like "why am I isolated? Why aren't I allowed in public but other kids are?" then "why don't my parents want me to be healthy?"

I don't think vaccinations being made mandatory will go down well, I think there is a fear of what forced medicine could be abused for in future.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby SunXia » Thu May 16, 2019 9:29 pm

Yeah I get the fears and such but look at whats happening. outbreaks of things that were functionally eradicated decades ago thanks to vaccinations. So when it comes to stuff that requires herd immunity I do not think its a massive ask for people to have their kids vaccinated so the kids with impaired immune systems don't die.

Education is an amazing thing, I agree.

HOWEVER

In this beautiful amazing era of technology where I have been able to speak to people across the world and learn so much there's also a massive downside to it. And that is, ideas spread. Which is fine when those ideas are not harmful. I know the old argument, kill bad ideas by presenting good ideas and yeah works to a degree but you still get loud minorities that refuse to see established and peer reviewed data as facts because "I, with my barely qualified High School diploma, know whats best for my baby".

Facebook and Twitter are starting to limit what is promoted on their website and honestly I feel that is a good thing. These dangerous ideas have been allowed to take root and we have become complacent on these issues in the name of "Freedom" and "Liberty" which are nice buzz words but what does that cost? Lives? Compromised health?

It is such a difficult thing to handle and while I encourage so many kids around me on education and stuff, some people just don't want to know until something awful happens. And if its not mandatory then maybe something else to encourage it like less benefits if you don't??

People have this idea that we should not get involved with how they raise their children and while yes, to an extent. There are things that are harmful that the world has a right to get involved with. Child Abuse is one of those things that we have authorities able to do stuff in regards. Honestly, I do not see this as much different as they are severely endangering their children while also endangering others around them.

Maybe vaccinations and their importance should be part of the curriculum but then that means the dangerous child will still be among those who they can hurt. Should children be allowed to get vaccinated without Parental approval? It's such a difficult topic but I just know that these people make me fear for the safety of those coming after us.
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