2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Jia Nanfeng » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:22 am

Shikanosuke wrote:An explanation wasn't necessary, I'm being polite in an effort to deescalate. When you defend a position, you and your language become part of the discussion. A way to avoid this is to indicate a difference between your own views and those of the position you are defending.

I understand you're just being polite and I appreciate it. My post was simply offering advice from the perspective of someone who read the word "you" a lot. :lol:

Differentiating views is indeed a good policy to follow. I tried to use "I believe" and "I think" aplenty throughout the debate when talking about my views compared to Trump's, and tried to correct assumptions about my position so we didn't get caught up debating about something irrelevant to my or your beliefs. In the future I will keep in mind whether the differentiation is clear enough when proofreading before posting.

Overall it was a decent discussion. Ended up in one big agree to disagree (outside of some minor details) which I'm perfectly fine with. Very preferable to the endless mudslinging that tends to happen on most other internet forums.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:06 pm

I know Trump is a Brexiteer (as little as he understandably thinks about such things) by instinct but is there any particular reason he keeps saying unhelpful things that shaft the UK government at key times? Carelessness? Ignorance? Hoping to repeat the comedy of his visit (and failing)? Contempt/dislike for May?

Most of his attitudes towards us (hatred Mayor Khan, dislike of the SNP, pro Brexit) I can understand why he thinks that, even if I am appalled the way he handles UK terrorist attacks, but the constant damage to someone who has tried to help him is odd.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Jia Nanfeng » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:55 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:I know Trump is a Brexiteer (as little as he understandably thinks about such things) by instinct but is there any particular reason he keeps saying unhelpful things that shaft the UK government at key times? Carelessness? Ignorance? Hoping to repeat the comedy of his visit (and failing)? Contempt/dislike for May?

Most of his attitudes towards us (hatred Mayor Khan, dislike of the SNP, pro Brexit) I can understand why he thinks that, even if I am appalled the way he handles UK terrorist attacks, but the constant damage to someone who has tried to help him is odd.

Trump insults other leaders and governments often. Generally it’s because he’s angry at how much the US pays out for what he considers to be little in return. On specific occasions it’s because he legitimately thinks the leader is incompetent.

The timing of his words is often a way to make world events about him. It’s actually quite spectacular how good he is at turning all eyes to him whether he wants, and media falls for it consistently.

It could also be that he’s trying to incite nationalism in the populace, as he considers globalists, which describes many European leaders, to be the penultimate enemy. Brexit is seen as a victory in this regard.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:31 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:I know Trump is a Brexiteer (as little as he understandably thinks about such things) by instinct but is there any particular reason he keeps saying unhelpful things that shaft the UK government at key times? Carelessness? Ignorance? Hoping to repeat the comedy of his visit (and failing)? Contempt/dislike for May?

Most of his attitudes towards us (hatred Mayor Khan, dislike of the SNP, pro Brexit) I can understand why he thinks that, even if I am appalled the way he handles UK terrorist attacks, but the constant damage to someone who has tried to help him is odd.


To answer your question, there are likely plenty of reasons. Few are likely specific or particularly good reasons to insult others.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby James » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:27 pm

Jia Nanfeng wrote:Trump insults other leaders and governments often. Generally it’s because he’s angry at how much the US pays out for what he considers to be little in return. On specific occasions it’s because he legitimately thinks the leader is incompetent.

He is indeed extremely quick to insult and attack other country leaders, though I'd argue he's rather far off-base in terms of trade agreements (in terms of accurately representing what the United States pays out vs what it benefits in turn). And his policies are backfiring against American companies (e.g. Harley Davidson before, presently the impact of tariffs on companies like GE, or in terms of the future the likes of his threat regarding "iPhones" and "laptops"). I get the impression a lot of what he does in this regard is playing to his base ahead of benefit for our country or cooperation with our allies. He doesn't seem to understand the economic dynamics between manufacturing these devices in emerging economies vs the costs associated with doing so at home, or how any resulting economics would impact lower income consumers or the companies which produce these products.

Actually, on that later note, he doesn't seem to understand that certain jobs are going away or have ceased (or are ceasing to be) viable in the United States (e.g. certain types of manufacturing, some other jobs like many associated with coal) and is cutting or attacking programs which can benefit these displaced workers while failing to support ideas which could help them. If I'm being cynical, he does have some understanding of the subject and is again playing to politics and votes.

Back to his habit of attacking friends and allies, I find it particularly striking that he tip-toes around and does not attack (rather often praises) select government leaders like Putin, or can seem so reserved (if not impotent and complacent) when dealing with select scenarios like the Khashoggi murder and Saudi Arabia.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:47 pm

Jia Nanfeng wrote:Trump insults other leaders and governments often. Generally it’s because he’s angry at how much the US pays out for what he considers to be little in return. On specific occasions it’s because he legitimately thinks the leader is incompetent.


That is true and one usually just shrugs it off by now but May is an ally and bar one comment, has been nothing but kind to him despite major political cost. That is the bit I don't get, why stab an ally in the back like this?

The timing of his words is often a way to make world events about him. It’s actually quite spectacular how good he is at turning all eyes to him whether he wants, and media falls for it consistently.


True, he an expert on what is called in UK political circles as the "dead cat strategy".

It could also be that he’s trying to incite nationalism in the populace, as he considers globalists, which describes many European leaders, to be the penultimate enemy. Brexit is seen as a victory in this regard.


I agree with you in that Brexit is very much a Trump like thing. Freeing nation from a bureaucracy, the "little guy against the odds", the nation sailing on it's strength. Trump is known to have contacts with certain Brexiteers at various times and is believed to be really baffled by why countries like Germany and France would want to stay in EU

I do get why Trump wouldn't, in a genuine way, not like May's deal. Trump's romantic adventurous nationalistic Brexit idea vs May's version which is one of a technocrat trying to find a middle path does not mesh well. Just, she held his hand, defended him and all he does is... this sort of thing when she is fighting the biggest political battle of her life.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Jia Nanfeng » Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:35 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:That is true and one usually just shrugs it off by now but May is an ally and bar one comment, has been nothing but kind to him despite major political cost. That is the bit I don't get, why stab an ally in the back like this?

Before I speculate, I want to make sure I’m thinking about the same comments you are.

Are we referring to his comments that May’s Brexit deal will harm trade with the US? Or did he say something else that I missed?
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:40 pm

Jia Nanfeng wrote:Before I speculate, I want to make sure I’m thinking about the same comments you are.

Are we referring to his comments that May’s Brexit deal will harm trade with the US? Or did he say something else that I missed?


That one (plus it was great deal for EU). Bear in mind if May loses vote (and right now, more a question of by how badly), her government could collapse and Trump's comments play right into her pendant's narrative so this was a bad thing for May so that is why it matters here he did that.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Jia Nanfeng » Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:58 pm

@James

I agree with you for the most part. Some of his dealings are indeed backfiring lately (though others are booming, so he’s hitting par for now). I also find it annoying that he doesn’t attack the leaders who deserve attacking, such as the two you’ve listed. I concur thoroughly with Tulsi Gabbard when she called him Saudi Arabia’s b——.

Dong Zhou wrote:
Jia Nanfeng wrote:Before I speculate, I want to make sure I’m thinking about the same comments you are.

Are we referring to his comments that May’s Brexit deal will harm trade with the US? Or did he say something else that I missed?


That and it was great deal for EU. Bear in mind if May loses vote (and right now, more a question of by how badly), her government could collapse and Trump's comments play right into her oppenant's narrative so this was a bad thing for May

I have a feeling that Trump would have said any deal that’s not complete removal from the EU would be a great deal for them. He’s retweeted Britain First in the past so he definitely wants ya’ll to go pure nationalist.

As for the trade, I’m unsure what will come of that. It’s hard to know with Trump whether it’ll be an empty threat or a promise. It may be a last-attempt effort to get her to change the deal somehow.

Trump is definitely not one to shy from insulting allies, even ones who have been only nice in return. He takes a “tough love” approach to our allies, especially when he perceives any weakness. From my view on this side of the pond, I’m not too surprised from his comments and even expected as much from him.

I’d advise May to ignore it, but that’d probably be the catalyst to making the above-mentioned threat into a promise. I don’t envy her having to navigate Trump’s art of the deal.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:02 pm

And the unreliability of Trump and America’s willingness to view us a weaker partner is exactly why we shouldn’t be leaving the EU.
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