2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Jia Nanfeng » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:23 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:During government shut-downs does the President, Congress, cabinet, senate and so on get pay docked? I'm hearing of lack of pay for government workers (it seems an appalling thing to do and I hope they change that to ensure livelihoods are kept going) but I haven't heard what happens to the higher ups during a shutdown. Bar congress/senate doesn't run.

Trump doesn’t take a paycheck either way; he donates it all away to charities.

Congress is still paid because the Constitution currently doesn’t allow withholding money from them without a bill. Some members of Congress introduced such a bill prior to the recent shutdown (as is the case with most shutdowns in the past as well), but as luck would have it, Congress voted against it. In other words they voted to still pay themselves. How convenient.

As for the President’s cabinet, they similarly will be paid unless a bill is passed to dock it. This year there was no vote, iirc, so they remained paid regardless. They will also be receiving their normal annual salary bonuses because there will be no Congress in session to vote on it.

It’s indeed the government workers who are screwed over. It can all be ended rather easily and quickly but politicians be politicizing.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:14 pm

Jia Nanfeng wrote:Trump doesn’t take a paycheck either way; he donates it all away to charities.


An interesting way to put it for an interesting situation. He donates his paychecks to government agencies, allegedly earmarked for charitable purposes (VA,DoE,SBA, etc). Ironically, some of which he plans/wants for budget cuts simultaneously.

Congress is still paid because the Constitution currently doesn’t allow withholding money from them without a bill. Some members of Congress introduced such a bill prior to the recent shutdown (as is the case with most shutdowns in the past as well), but as luck would have it, Congress voted against it. In other words they voted to still pay themselves. How convenient.

It’s indeed the government workers who are screwed over. It can all be ended rather easily and quickly but politicians be politicizing.


Agree on this, and lets be honest most folks in Congress don't need their paycheck from Congress. Many local senators often refuse their paycheck or donate it as well as a symbolic gesture.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:42 pm

Turkey's voting for Christmas is known to happen every day :wink: Thanks for the answer

I'm not a fan of politicians giving up salaries (if they are rich enough, quietly donate it by all means to charity. Or take that salary and donate rest of your money), partly becuase we have had problems where MP's got so scared of public they voted down payrises and it led to major issues. Just not while they aren't working when they are meant to be
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby James » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:20 pm

Jia Nanfeng wrote:Trump doesn’t take a paycheck either way; he donates it all away to charities.

He's been employing his position as president to drive a very significant amount of money to his businesses and has also exploited his position to gain a better foothold for those positions. He's definitely being handsomely compensated.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016 ... rests.html
http://www.wsj.com/articles/foreign-bus ... 1481797805
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Jia Nanfeng » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:45 am

James wrote:
Jia Nanfeng wrote:Trump doesn’t take a paycheck either way; he donates it all away to charities.

He's been employing his position as president to drive a very significant amount of money to his businesses and has also exploited his position to gain a better foothold for those positions. He's definitely being handsomely compensated.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016 ... rests.html
http://www.wsj.com/articles/foreign-bus ... 1481797805

True or not, these do not affect his Presidential salary, the income in question.

Also the first link discusses “potential conflicts” from 2016. I’d be curious if any of these have been realized since then.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Jia Nanfeng » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:33 pm

I just learned today that all federal employees will receive back-pay at 100% as soon as the shutdown ends. So it’s not as bad as it seems, outside of for those who live paycheck to paycheck.

The shutdown is just annoying political posturing by both sides. Though it’s nice to see a country prove it can function just fine with a sleeping government.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby James » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:28 pm

Jia Nanfeng wrote:Also the first link discusses “potential conflicts” from 2016. I’d be curious if any of these have been realized since then.

Examples are realized repeatedly. In addition to the WSJ article, here's a NYT opinion piece with some examples which can be referenced, and an Open Secrets reference. Plenty of individual examples, such as hotel negotiations or how government expenses and events are managed in his properties, have been covered pretty extensively.

https://www.opensecrets.org/trump/trump-properties
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/28/opin ... licts.html

As for the salary, this does dispense of any altruistic motive.

Jia Nanfeng wrote:I just learned today that all federal employees will receive back-pay at 100% as soon as the shutdown ends. So it’s not as bad as it seems, outside of for those who live paycheck to paycheck.

The shutdown is just annoying political posturing by both sides. Though it’s nice to see a country prove it can function just fine with a sleeping government.

The shutdown is going to cost more money than if the government had remained opened, just as usual. Not taking into consideration how events like this impact our economy. Many people live paycheck to paycheck. And of note the backpay won't extend to government contractors, many of whom are also not receiving pay.

The shutdown is not "annoying political posturing on both sides." Trump has drawn a line in the sand excessively on grounds of funding his wall (funding which he has failed to obtain even with a Republican majority in both the House and the Senate). It is extortion (word used literally) on the part of the president, and the Democratic Party (lawmakers in general) would be making a terrible mistake to give in to him on this sort of of petty, wildly irresponsible demand, thus setting precedent that this sort of approach can be rewarded. A correlation would be a Democratic Party president pushing the government into shutdown unless Republicans gave into a demand to tear down a border wall or open the borders. Or to greater excess, Republican lawmakers enacting something such as a restrictive gun ban.

Donald Trump has made his demand and has been clear in meetings with both parties, and publicly, that he will veto anything which does not include his demanded funding, and that (at least until his party defects sufficiently that this blows up in his face) he is content to let the shutdown continue for months if his demands are not met.

This is a very destructive and undemocratic means of conducting politics (by no means an intended avenue of conducting politics) and I'd be deeply concerned if lawmakers on either side of the aisle entertained setting precedent by backing down from such a demand (from any president whatever the letter attached to their name, whatever the example relative to the above).
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:35 pm

Jia Nanfeng wrote:I just learned today that all federal employees will receive back-pay at 100% as soon as the shutdown ends. So it’s not as bad as it seems, outside of for those who live paycheck to paycheck.

The shutdown is just annoying political posturing by both sides. Though it’s nice to see a country prove it can function just fine with a sleeping government.


Concur with James' sentiments, but this comment was also made to me by a family member recently. I find the sentiment oddly disconnected in its attempt to downplay the situation for many. While its true, and from my knowledge always has been true, that the employees who are disadvantaged by the shutdown will surely reimbursed for working without compensation...that does nothing to aid those below a certain income limit who live pay check to pay check and have creditors who want to satisfied and care less if the government is shut down. Good luck selling that line to them.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:23 pm

EU a little annoyed at their ambassadors being downgraded without being informed

Jia Nanfeng wrote:I just learned today that all federal employees will receive back-pay at 100% as soon as the shutdown ends. So it’s not as bad as it seems, outside of for those who live paycheck to paycheck.


That is better then nothing but still awful and not making any real attempt to fix the damage that will be caused by denying people money.

Jia Nanfeng wrote:The shutdown is just annoying political posturing by both sides. Though it’s nice to see a country prove it can function just fine with a sleeping government.


Only for short term. A non "tight election, coalition having to be built up" (I know you don't have those) spell that other countries have is fine for a spell. A shut-down for other reasons has immediate costs but for a time, the country can be managed day by day by civil service. Not too long though before problems will begin to hit of not having a functioning government
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election Speculation

Unread postby Jia Nanfeng » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:10 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Only for short term. A non "tight election, coalition having to be built up" (I know you don't have those) spell that other countries have is fine for a spell. A shut-down for other reasons has immediate costs but for a time, the country can be managed day by day by civil service. Not too long though before problems will begin to hit of not having a functioning government

Oh I agree that it will eventually cause problems. I don’t think we’re at that point yet. I couldn’t put a date on when we should start panicking though.

James wrote:
Jia Nanfeng wrote:Also the first link discusses “potential conflicts” from 2016. I’d be curious if any of these have been realized since then.

Examples are realized repeatedly. In addition to the WSJ article, here's a NYT opinion piece with some examples which can be referenced, and an Open Secrets references.

Thanks for the links.

I’ll take their word for it, that these things are happening. It’s not a topic I’m concerned with enough to verify it further nor to form an opinion on it. One of the articles mentioned that the Dems are suing Trump for such dealings; if something ever comes of that I’ll revisit it.

I’m still unsure what these financial dealings have to do with Trump’s Presidential salary.

The shutdown is not "annoying political posturing on both sides." Trump has drawn a line in the sand excessively on grounds of funding his wall (funding which he has failed to obtain even with a Republican majority in both the House and the Senate). It is extortion (word used literally) on the part of the president, and the Democratic Party (lawmakers in general) would be making a terrible mistake to give in to him on this sort of of petty, wildly irresponsible demand, thus setting precedent that this sort of approach can be rewarded. A correlation would be a Democratic Party president pushing the government into shutdown unless Republicans gave into a demand to tear down a border wall or open the borders. Or to greater excess, Republican lawmakers enacting something such as a restrictive gun ban.

Donald Trump has made his demand and has been clear in meetings with both parties, and publicly, that he will veto anything which does not include his demanded funding, and that (at least until his party defects sufficiently that this blows up in his face) he is content to let the shutdown continue for months if his demands are not met.

This is a very destructive and undemocratic means of conducting politics (by no means an intended avenue of conducting politics) and I'd be deeply concerned if lawmakers on either side of the aisle entertained setting precedent by backing down from such a demand (from any president whatever the letter attached to their name, whatever the example relative to the above).

I agree that it’s a bad precedent. I haven’t excused Trump’s involvement in this; your rebuttal would be better aimed at someone who thinks the shut down was the right move to make.

A shutdown is inherently a “both sides” problem. It wouldn’t have occurred at all if serious talks were held, and compromises made. As it stands, I see Trump suddenly doubling down on the wall issue because he saw his base getting antsy over a failed promise; I see Trump awkwardly waiting for a lost Senate so he could paint the Dems as obstructionists and anti-American-safety leading into the coming campaigns; I see Democrat members who just a couple years ago held strong border-protection positions suddenly make 180s to avoid agreeing with Trump; I see promises of talks from the likes of Pelosi being taken back within hours of making it; I see “fact checks” of wall claims repeatedly saying “This is correct, but”, as if interpretation of facts should run through political filters; these same facts are further shoved aside in favor of a holier-than-thou argument for morality, when arguments for or against practicality would be more convincing; yes, I indeed see much annoying political posturing, and the shutdown is the ultimate symptom of their willingness to screw people over if it means scoring points with their voters.
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