Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby DreamGoddessLindsey » Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:39 pm

I don't see comparisons as wildly inaccurate. A few important points:

1. Hitler's reign did not open with the holocaust.

2. I never said Putin was a Nazi or anti-Semitic. I said their behavior has been parallel so far.

3. Their policies have been very close so far. See the checklist I made in one of my previous posts.

I'm saying they're similar, and Putin is on a similar path, and that their policies are quite similar. You can't deny the facts of the case. He's doing it. Rolling back civil rights to horrendous proportions and annexing lands.
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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:49 pm

DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:
I'm saying they're similar, and Putin is on a similar path, and that their policies are quite similar. You can't deny the facts of the case. He's doing it. Rolling back civil rights to horrendous proportions and annexing lands.


I would suggest Russia has never been on the top of the human rights list of all-stars, Putin really hasn't done too much different in that regard. If you're mostly referring to his laws limiting speech on homosexuality, then I wouldn't be supporting the President or ruling party of Ukraine very much either as their vocal opponents of homosexuality as well.

As for his annexation, Hitler annexed and invaded Poland, Hungry, Czechoslovakia, and a handful of other countries. Russia has bloodlessly annexed Crimea. Now I don't think that action was legal by any measure. Either way, proportionally speaking we're talking apples and oranges. Those would stand, as you suggest, as the 'facts of the case'. There are also no signs Russia is gearing up for any large invasion of Europe. In fact, didn't Putin meet with Ukranian leaders today?

To be honest I don't think Putin knows what Putin wants, but I am fairly certain he's stepping cautiously.
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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby DreamGoddessLindsey » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:19 am

Actually, I'm avoiding the "gay rights" part because it's personal to me. I'd rather discuss Putin without my personal feelings and inflections. Putin is scaling back rights all over the place, not just for gays. Putin is in the news quite often for his civil rights record. The Pussy Riot fiasco recently really showed Putin's true colors. I was actually shocked that none of them were murdered, but very glad. I was terrified when one of the women disappeared en route to Siberia. Happy when she was found later.

Anyway, I digress.

The points of the comparison to Hitler are two-fold:

1. Appeasement policies are never ever a good thing.

2. People need to recognize that Putin is dangerous, and that his behavior has been seen before. People need to keep a close eye on the situation and make sure we don't repeat the mistakes of the past.

Basically, if you're unwilling to see the parallels between Putin and Hitler, you'll never be ready for if Putin pulls the trigger and starts World War III. Don't be caught with your pants down. "Those who do not learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them."

By appeasing this guy and giving him the benefit of the doubt when he really doesn't deserve it will only blind you to the real threat.
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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:47 am

DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:
The points of the comparison to Hitler are two-fold:

1. Appeasement policies are never ever a good thing.


I understand the sentiment you're trying to get across, I'm just not sure any of the world leaders have adopted an appeasement strategy. I would respectfully submit that they've actually done the opposite, providing non lethal support (food mostly thus far) to the Ukrainian government, as well as moving air carriers and planes to Poland. NATO isn't merely abandoning Ukraine.

I would also add to this that this comes at a time when the US focus should be on the M.E. or the supposed 'swing' to Asia. To WWD's point as well, you could half make the argument the West has done a huge favor to Ukraine in its dismal coverage of the Ukrainian revolution and its new leaders (aka ignoring who they are).


2. People need to recognize that Putin is dangerous, and that his behavior has been seen before. People need to keep a close eye on the situation and make sure we don't repeat the mistakes of the past.

Basically, if you're unwilling to see the parallels between Putin and Hitler, you'll never be ready for if Putin pulls the trigger and starts World War III. Don't be caught with your pants down. "Those who do not learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them."

By appeasing this guy and giving him the benefit of the doubt when he really doesn't deserve it will only blind you to the real threat.


I understand the sentiment you're trying to get across about recognizing the patterns of history. However, I'm not sure that is occurring here and I'm not sure we should leap at every perceived boogeyman. The US doesn't take Russian power lightly. If we did, as I mentioned earlier, we wouldn't be causing an international raucous over this and diverting both military and political capital to the region.

I would suggest, if I may, that a) we're not appeasing Putin and b) Putin isn't coming for us.
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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:02 am

Shikanosuke wrote:I would suggest Russia has never been on the top of the human rights list of all-stars, Putin really hasn't done too much different in that regard.


I would argue, along with Dr Stephen Cohen, that Putin has actually been better on the topics of human rights and democratic governance in Russia than pretty much any of the prior leaders / chairmen / tsars of Russia going back for hundreds of years. Now, one might still say with some justice that's damning with faint praise, but he's certainly an improvement over Yeltsin, who had zero respect for the democratic process and tolerated zero dissent from the official line. (Putin, on the other hand, has had massive protests against him and largely ignored them - protests which would not have been tolerated at any point during Soviet times or even during Yeltsin's time.)

Shikanosuke wrote:I understand the sentiment you're trying to get across about recognizing the patterns of history. However, I'm not sure that is occurring here and I'm not sure we should leap at every perceived boogeyman. The US doesn't take Russian power lightly. If we did, as I mentioned earlier, we wouldn't be causing an international raucous over this and diverting both military and political capital to the region.

I would suggest, if I may, that a) we're not appeasing Putin and b) Putin isn't coming for us.


Agreed. In fact, I'd say our current strategy toward Putin is warping our entire ME/NA policy as well as wasting resources and provoking tensions in E. Europe, and even pushing him into a possible anti-American alliance with China (which is something we certainly do not want).

As for the Crotch Unrest, er, 'fiasco', I must confess that I fail to see how Putin's treatment of them elucidates his character, or 'shows his true colours' (and as what, precisely?).
Last edited by WeiWenDi on Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby Aygor » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:57 am

Pravyy Sector rose to prominence during Jevromaidan, there is no questioning that the ukrainian loyalist movement have a strong neo nazist component if not leadership.

There was a golpe against a democratically elected president influenced by foreign countries, regions of the state whose people felt they belonged to a neighbouring country for ethnical, cultural, linguistical reaseons rioted and in a referendum elected to be independent and asked for annexion while fighting pro nazist loyalists.
Now I don't want to make an apology to Putin's operate, or argue that politics are above morality but if the situation was reversed I can see western media and politicians talking about the right of self determination of peoples, praising and supporting the secessionists and condemning the nazist loyalists aggressors.
I am not naively claiming that Russia did not actively support the rebels and influence the situation to it's advantage, the USA though, did the same.

The comparison between Putin and Hitler can't stand as, even with the little similiarities pointed out in other posts, Hitler was the centre of geopolitics, Putin isn't: Hitler bent Europe to his wishes, Putin can't and he knows it, he merely exploits opportunities to it's advantage.
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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby SunXia » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:24 am

1. Hitler's reign did not open with the holocaust.

No it did not but by this stage of his power, in comparison to the length of time Putin has been in power as well, the Holocaust would have already have happened!!

The Final Solution started in 1941 but he had already been rounding up Jews and other "undesirables" throughout his reign of power!! The Final Solution was something that happened later, when he could not realize his desire to deport the Jews to Madagascar because of the state of Global War!! Hitler never wanted war with Britain so he was taking his time and rounding them up!!

It was a gradual thing but he was still doing terrible unjustifiable things that haven't been seen in Europe in a long while!!
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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby Jordan » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:13 pm

I would argue, along with Dr Stephen Cohen, that Putin has actually been better on the topics of human rights and democratic governance in Russia than pretty much any of the prior leaders / chairmen / tsars of Russia going back for hundreds of years.


This seems more like a joke about Russian history than anything else. :lol:

I have mixed feelings on Putin, but comparing him to other Russian leaders doesn't make him look all that favorable when Russia has had hundreds of years of arbitrary autocracy.
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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby DreamGoddessLindsey » Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:54 pm

Welp, can't ignore the anti-gay part of Putin with this new (at least to me) information.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... -turn.html

Gee, where has something like this happened before? :(
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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:12 am

DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:Welp, can't ignore the anti-gay part of Putin with this new (at least to me) information.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... -turn.html

Gee, where has something like this happened before? :(


America, and probably any country where you wanted to put pressure on a group considered undesirable. If you're alluding to Germany I think they were a little more open, blatant, and ultraviolent about it.
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