Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby DreamGoddessLindsey » Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:09 am

Shikanosuke wrote:America, and probably any country where you wanted to put pressure on a group considered undesirable. If you're alluding to Germany I think they were a little more open, blatant, and ultraviolent about it.


Not at first. I'm worried, okay? I fear for the people of that country. I can't help it. I CARE. I WORRY.
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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:40 am

DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:
Shikanosuke wrote:America, and probably any country where you wanted to put pressure on a group considered undesirable. If you're alluding to Germany I think they were a little more open, blatant, and ultraviolent about it.


Not at first. I'm worried, okay? I fear for the people of that country. I can't help it. I CARE. I WORRY.


Just as, may we presume, you 'feared for' the people of Afghanistan in 2001? Or you 'cared' about the people of Iraq in 2002? Or you 'worried' about the Libyans in 2011?

One observation I've made over, well, my entire adult life is that nothing seems to be quite so harmful to these people as an American 'caring' about them by hollering for war against them.
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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby DreamGoddessLindsey » Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:49 am

That was completely (PC version of "R" word) and uncalled for. What in the hell are you thinking saying something outrageous like that?

Iraq was a fucking vendetta for Bush, the rationale for which was based entirely by lies perpetuated by the Bush Administration. There is a reason Bush ranks as one of the worst Presidents in American history by most scholars. It's a wonder he wasn't hauled off to answer for war crimes.

Afghanistan, that was a lose-lose clusterfuck.

What has gotten into your head to think the situations are even remotely comparable? Have you lost your mind?
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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:14 am

Only one person here is calling for war against Russia, that I can tell, on the basis that Putin is like Hitler and therefore, presumably, needs to be stopped by military force.

Let's just say this is one tune I've heard before, time and time and time again as a pretext for military intervention. Silly me, I seem to have less and less patience for it every time it gets repeated on such spurious bases as yours.

Robert Manne wrote:As part of the ideological preparations for war against Iraq, we have been bombarded by reminders about Europe in the 1930s. Saddam Hussein has frequently been likened to Adolf Hitler. As leader of the anti-Saddam forces, George Bush has been likened to Winston Churchill. Those who oppose the war have been dismissed as naive "appeasers". When the arguments of the appeasers have threatened to dominate discussions at the United Nations, the "irrelevance" of the League of Nations, in the face of Hitler's brutal aggression, has been recalled.


Sound familiar?
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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:36 am

DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:Not at first. I'm worried, okay? I fear for the people of that country. I can't help it. I CARE. I WORRY.


I agree with most of WWD's assertions, but DGL there's nothing wrong with caring. But I don't think caring and trying to prop up a faulty hitler comparison with Putin are really connected. I can only imagine, also, that going to war with Russia wouldn't help the lives of LGBT.

Also I'd assume if you care about the LGBT community in Russia you also likely do about the same community in Ukraine. With the current leadership, I don't believe it will be rosy for that community much longer either.
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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:34 am

DGL, don't swear or use variations of the f word. That is against the rules.

I'm not too happy with "PC version of R word" either, using mental disability as an insult is nasty in two ways, even if you use the R word.
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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby DreamGoddessLindsey » Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:06 pm

Oh, sorry, didn't know swearing was against the rules. As for the other, I just couldn't think of an appropriate word.
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Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:45 am

DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:Oh, sorry, didn't know swearing was against the rules.


For future helpful reference:

Vulgar or Explicit Content

This relates to images, language, and sexual content. Absolutely no pornography or explicit sexual content. Avoid moderate or extreme vulgar language except in the case of topic-appropriate quotation (if the language filter kicks in, replacing text with something like ••••, your wording is probably inappropriate). On that note, do not attempt to defeat the language filter when it kicks in—it does so for a reason.


link




As for the other, I just couldn't think of an appropriate word.


Helpful tool for future reference.
Last edited by Shikanosuke on Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby DreamGoddessLindsey » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:45 am

Honestly, I didn't even think about a thesaurus.

Okay then, feeble-minded sounds good enough to work, at least when talking about people.

Hmmm. Gorked. I like that for when talking about an idea.

Sounds good to me, but may take some time to memorize.

By the way, I never bypassed a language filter on here. You can see for yourself that there are no bypass things there. That's part of why I thought swearing was okay as long as you weren't using it to flame someone. Yes, I know I've flamed, and I've accepted responsibility for those without complaint. Anyway, that's the whole thing on it.
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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:03 pm

Just came across a news story that is perhaps relevant to the topic of discussion, on the Washington Post:

As the situation in Iraq begins to looks more and more like a complete state meltdown, Russia has stepped in with a familiar refrain: "We told you so."

"We are greatly alarmed by what is happening in Iraq. We warned long ago that the affair that the Americans and the Britons stirred up there wouldn't end well," Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Wednesday, according to Voice of Russia. He also described the Iraq war as a "total failure" and said Russia was sorry that its forecasts had come true.

It's hard to deny that Russia was vocal in saying that the Iraq war was a bad idea. In March 2003, just as the invasion began, Russian President Vladimir Putin publicly criticized it. It was the "most serious crisis the world has faced since the Cold War," he told the Duma, adding that the fighting would be "fierce" and "drawn out."

At that point, it was a somewhat surprising move (remember, we were then less than three years into the Putin era, now in its 15th year). These days, we're pretty used to Russian criticisms of U.S. foreign policy, and the finger wagging that comes afterward: Russia loves to remind the United States that it warned against its international follies.

...

There's an obvious logic here. Russia's repeated use of "We told you so" also allows it to say: "You didn't listen to us then, so you should listen to us now." Putin has brought up his warnings against intervention in Libya and Iraq as a way to defend his positions on Syria.

Even so, it's tempting to look at Russia's positions on various conflicts and wonder whether there was something to it. With the events of the past few days, a lot of people probably feel that Putin may well have been right about Iraq (as John Nagl, an Iraq war veteran writes for The Post today, "This is not the end state my friends fought for and died for"). Meanwhile, the chaotic state of Libya today certainly makes you question the path taken there, and as the Syrian war drags on past its third anniversary with no end in sight, perhaps Russia's calls for more dialogue with Bashar al-Assad weren't so terrible after all.


To be honest, even long before my conversion, it was my opposition to all these wars we keep fighting, as well as a shared sympathy for their victims, that wound up pushing me further and further into the pro-Russia camp.
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