When Is It Ok To Hire A Facist?

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Re: When Is It Ok To Hire A Facist?

Unread postby epaminondas146871 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:06 am

In terms of government jobs, it's definitely okay to hire a fascist. The government can't discriminate over such things.

Private employers can fire and hire for reasons at their discretion. They can hire whoever they want and fire whoever they want for whatever reason, because, well, they're in control. It's their business.
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Re: When Is It Ok To Hire A Facist?

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:05 am

epaminondas146871 wrote:In terms of government jobs, it's definitely okay to hire a fascist. The government can't discriminate over such things.

Private employers can fire and hire for reasons at their discretion. They can hire whoever they want and fire whoever they want for whatever reason, because, well, they're in control. It's their business.



I don't believe that entirely true. Its true most states are 'at-will' employment states where private employers can fire you over a plethora of things but most states (and the federal government) have anti-discrimination laws which prohibit all employers from firing for certain conditions. I could be wrong, of course.
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Re: When Is It Ok To Hire A Facist?

Unread postby laojim » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:00 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Or a Racist. Or a neo-Nazi. You get the picture....
Over here, there has been an uproar as top flight football/soccer club Sunderland has appointed Paolo Di Canio as manager. During his twilight spell as a player in home club Lazio, it came out that he was a fan of Mussolini, did Roman salutes, involved with the fascist Ultra's and is seen as a fascist himself. So his appointment has caused uproar in the media (though most of them didn't care when he was manager of Swindon) and among probably the majority of rival fans.....


The replies generally overlook the obvious fact that this is in England, a country bombed and rocketed from the major fascist regime in Europe in the middle twentieth centuty, Germany. There are still living people who lost friends and relatives in a war against fascism, which was defeated in the end. Popular sentiment at the time regarded fascism as having been relegated to the ash heap of history. It is a credit to the English people that this fool wasn't torn to pieces.

On the other hand, he is, I take it, Italiian where quite a variety of political philosopies are widely held. To give the Roman salute in Italy is one thing, but it is certainly in poor taste in England. Italy is, after all, the land that defined fascism and more or less invented it, using Austrian mdels but mostly just making it up as they went along.
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Re: When Is It Ok To Hire A Facist?

Unread postby Aygor » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:32 am

laojim wrote:a country bombed and rocketed from the major fascist regime in Europe in the middle twentieth centuty, Germany.

Fascism and Nazism have little in common other than the fact that Hitler modelled his regime after Mussolini's: Germany was a nazist country, not a fascist one.
laojim wrote:To give the Roman salute in Italy is one thing, but it is certainly in poor taste in England.

Italy fought a civil war against fascism (Kingdom of Italy against the Italian Social Republic) thus doing the Roman Salute in Italy is illegal.
laojim wrote:Italy is, after all, the land that defined fascism and more or less invented it, using Austrian mdels but mostly just making it up as they went along.

I honestly fail to see how you can say that Mussolini used Austrian models to theorize and apply Fascism.

epaminondas146871 wrote:In terms of government jobs, it's definitely okay to hire a fascist. The government can't discriminate over such things.

I think governaments should absolutely discriminate these things: posts which hold high responsibility to a country must be assigned to people who are not of extremist ideas, as these ideas more often than not lead to disaster.
That is, unless an extremist (being him/her a fascist, nazist, communist etc.) is elected by the people to constitute his/her governament.
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Re: When Is It Ok To Hire A Facist?

Unread postby SunXia » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:32 am

Aygor wrote:
laojim wrote:a country bombed and rocketed from the major fascist regime in Europe in the middle twentieth centuty, Germany.

Fascism and Nazism have little in common other than the fact that Hitler modelled his regime after Mussolini's: Germany was a nazist country, not a fascist one.
And it wasn't just Nazism that was being fought, many Allied troops lost their lives invading Italy too!!
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Re: When Is It Ok To Hire A Facist?

Unread postby Aygor » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:20 pm

SunXia wrote:And it wasn't just Nazism that was being fought, many Allied troops lost their lives invading Italy too!!

Sure thing, I just wanted to yet again underline that Fascism and Nazism are a different thing.
That said, circa 1940-41 Italy became de facto a puppet of Germany, Fascism was an issue only in name at the time.
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Re: When Is It Ok To Hire A Facist?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:25 pm

Shikanosuke wrote:
epaminondas146871 wrote:In terms of government jobs, it's definitely okay to hire a fascist. The government can't discriminate over such things.

Private employers can fire and hire for reasons at their discretion. They can hire whoever they want and fire whoever they want for whatever reason, because, well, they're in control. It's their business.



I don't believe that entirely true. Its true most states are 'at-will' employment states where private employers can fire you over a plethora of things but most states (and the federal government) have anti-discrimination laws which prohibit all employers from firing for certain conditions. I could be wrong, of course.


Pretty certain that sacking someone over political views would be considered discrimination in England and grounds for a spectacularly huge legal case.
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Re: When Is It Ok To Hire A Facist?

Unread postby laojim » Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:09 pm

SunXia wrote:
Aygor wrote:
laojim wrote:a country bombed and rocketed from the major fascist regime in Europe in the middle twentieth centuty, Germany.

Fascism and Nazism have little in common other than the fact that Hitler modelled his regime after Mussolini's: Germany was a nazist country, not a fascist one.
And it wasn't just Nazism that was being fought, many Allied troops lost their lives invading Italy too!!


It is wrong to think of fascism in terms of technical distinctions. Fascism never had a theoretical literature or a founding philosophy. When Mondadori was publishing his encyclopaedia he wanted an article on fascism but could find nobody to write it and had to ask Mussolini, who was happy to do it, but the article is famously rambling and inchoherent. Even more to the point, this distinction was not generally thought significant to the people of England, America, or the other allies of the period. They thought of fascism as dominating Germany, Austria, Italy, Spain, and sympathetic governments in occupied countries. People spoke of "fighting fascism," meaning the governments of those countries. Finally, it is worth noting that the fascist of Europe actually saw themselves as an elite group of modern progressives.

In Britt's famous article (http://rense.com/general37/char.htm) Britt adds Indosnesia and several latin-American nations, such as Paraguay as fascist countries. He emphasises in his number 11 that fascists tend to be hostile to academics and tend to censor and even arrest them. This is not an intellectual atmosphere likely to develop a sound theoretical basis for fascism.

I believe that a good portrait of Italian fascism may be found in the film Love and Anarchy. It is irrelevant to the main plot, but is a sonstant factor in the cultural setting of the events.
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Re: When Is It Ok To Hire A Facist?

Unread postby Aygor » Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:24 pm

laojim wrote:It is wrong to think of fascism in terms of technical distinctions.

I have the opposite opinion, overgeneralization of concepts is misleading in sensitive topics.
laojim wrote:Fascism never had a theoretical literature or a founding philosophy.

Nazism on the other hand did have a founding philosophy and literature which highlights it's core differences from Fascism.
laojim wrote:Even more to the point, this distinction was not generally thought significant to the people of England, America, or the other allies of the period.

On the surface both regimes were pretty similiar as both were militaristic, nationalist and aesthetically close (Hitler openly used Fascism as a model for Nazism in that regard).
laojim wrote:In Britt's famous article (http://rense.com/general37/char.htm) [...]

Through Britt's points (quite a few of which seem stretched when applied to particular regimes) many (if not most) tyrannies/regimes may be called fascist; in my opinion though when discussing Fascism as the governament of Italy through 1922 to 1943 (even though Italy became a satellite of Germany in 1939 up to being a de facto province circa 1941) it is important to keep in mind that the differences between it and Nazism are vast.
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Re: When Is It Ok To Hire A Facist?

Unread postby laojim » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:45 pm

Aygor wrote:
laojim wrote:It is wrong to think of fascism in terms of technical distinctions.

I have the opposite opinion, overgeneralization of concepts is misleading in sensitive topics....


Yes, but the point is that in the 1930's and forties the two wre thought of as being variants of the same thing. If you recall Woody Guthrie's famous guitar with a sign saying "This machine kills fascists" he meant, as did most Americans, the Nazi's and the Spainish (fascism being explicit in the civil war when Franco was courting Hitler), with some passing reference to the Italians, Austrians, and others. That has remained the case ever since. This does not justify some sort of ontological argument, but it defines what has long been meant by the term.

Some of this is simply a matter of language. Propaganda, for instance, is a term used in the advertising business before the second war, but which was completely abandoned in the fifties. Dictator was also a respectable term. There was even a car model called the Studebaker Dictator. The fascia, or fasces, a bundle of sticks with an axe head was a favorite symbol of the fascists, but it was also found on the dime and in the front of the House of Representative.

Similarly the Roman Salute, or a variant of it, was promoted as the proper salute to the flag in the United States. In this country, therefore, the distinction between the Italian fascists and the German Nazi, important to understand policy and social significance, is not commonly recognized. I seriously doubt that the average British football fan could give you a cogent differentiation. I refer you to Billy Brag's "All You Fascists."
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