Idle Talk with Shritzu

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Re: Idle Talk with Shritzu

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:13 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
There is general belief here that if people are armed, that they are more likely to get up for a fight or put their hand on their gun/knife/teddy.

On a personal level? I don't trust the general populace to use a weapon sensibly or keep it locked up so those who shouldn't have them don't get them. I really wouldn't have trusted the people in my last neighbourhood to use guns sensibly, as nice as some of them were.


I guess I can understand the idea that people who have guns will go use them, but it seems a tad foreign to me. Considering the amount of guns here, if I embraced that idea I'd have to expect gun violence at all times. As it is, I don't. That isn't to say gun violence doesn't happen, but often its by the area you are in. And many/most of those guns are illegally bought/sold anyway.



It doesn't seem to be that effective, at least in America, though. Which wouldn't be such an issue if we mostly looked at another country when we think gun control but when we think guns, we think of you guys.


Is it? I'd wonder how many people aren't allowed firearms. The perpetrator at Sandy Hook was denied one. True, he stole a legally owned one but he wasn't able to obtain one on his own.


We fail to see it as a defensive thing though, we see it and we go "why the hell do you have a gun" and even if you say protection we ask the same thing. You would pretty much have to be a Mafia target before people didn't back away slowly.


Protection is a big deal here. Protection over person, other persons, and property.

Shooting as a hobby would probably get you weird looks unfortunately. So would hunting unless as a job. A job like farming or some such would probably be the only acceptable way in the UK to explain having a gun.


And that baffles me. Shooting is fun. Its a common pastime in the majority of the country I'd say. Maybe not everywhere, but alot.


To an extent though obviously it can't be banned in the home. It isn't utterly banned outside but if your carrying one on your person and police spot it then your in trouble. In certain area's (and particularly if your non-white), the police are able to stop and search to ensure your not carrying a knife.

Those who carry knife's as simple protection are encouraged not to do so.


And I think that is partly true here as well. Guns are used for legitimate purposes and so proliferate in our culture it'd be logistically impossible to ban them.

EDIT: To be clear I'm not trying to argue your points. There is just a cultural divide as we've both noted.
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Re: Idle Talk with Shritzu

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:23 am

Shikanosuke wrote:Shooting is fun. Its a common pastime in the majority of the country I'd say. Maybe not everywhere, but alot.


I'll add to your statement and say that it is a common pastime in all of the country to some extent or another. So you would be right, in my opinion, in saying everywhere as in all 50 states. There's a gun enthusiast in every state, and opinions on guns are limited to the individual, as you stated in your post.
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Re: Idle Talk with Shritzu

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:31 am

Shikanosuke wrote:
I guess I can understand the idea that people who have guns will go use them, but it seems a tad foreign to me. Considering the amount of guns here, if I embraced that idea I'd have to expect gun violence at all times. As it is, I don't. That isn't to say gun violence doesn't happen, but often its by the area you are in. And many/most of those guns are illegally bought/sold anyway.


I think it's more an escalation theory. Someone goes around with knife and attacks happen so others get knives and people have a weapon, violence or fights are more likely. Doesn't mean gun/knife killings go rampant, just (according to the theory), it ups the killings.

Is it? I'd wonder how many people aren't allowed firearms. The perpetrator at Sandy Hook was denied one. True, he stole a legally owned one but he wasn't able to obtain one on his own.


The problem is, it seems from over like it still too easy for those who aren't meant to have guns to get at them somehow.
Protection is a big deal here. Protection over person, other persons, and property.


Brought to mind a question. Over here, we have a law of proportional force when defending your home and wondering how guns fit in. What, roughly, counts as proportional force when defending self or home with gun and what might be considered too far?

And that baffles me. Shooting is fun. Its a common pastime in the majority of the country I'd say. Maybe not everywhere, but alot.


I suppose it simply isn't popular here because we don't have the guns for most people to take part and shooting becomes associated with clay pigeon shooting or deer hunting, the reserve of the rich. If we hadn't such stringent gunlaws in place for so long and we had more hunteable animals, we might also be a nation of shooters/hunters.


EDIT: To be clear I'm not trying to argue your points. There is just a cultural divide as we've both noted.


Ditto.

You barbarian :wink:
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Re: Idle Talk with Shritzu

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:40 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
Brought to mind a question. Over here, we have a law of proportional force when defending your home and wondering how guns fit in. What, roughly, counts as proportional force when defending self or home with gun and what might be considered too far?


It's actually a tricky question because it varies from state to state and the situation one finds themselves in. Many states have modified version of the Castle doctrines. For instance if one feels their person is threatened they may use deadly force if they could not otherwise retreat from the situation safely. If they could, they must. On the other end some states, like Texas I believe, have a less watered down Castle doctrine and allow you to shoot those who threaten your person/invade your territory without the need to retreat or to use proportional force.

I wish I could be more detailed and thorough about it, but to be honest it's often unclear and changing depending on your state.





You barbarian :wink:


:lol: :lol:
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Re: Idle Talk with Shritzu

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:34 pm

I guessed it would be complicated, our own has to be provide enough grey area's to allow the relevant authorities to use their judgement, forgot it would be a state by state thing.
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Re: Idle Talk with Shritzu

Unread postby Shritzu » Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:35 am

Most curious. So it is argued by some that misfortune here is opportunity somewhere else. That violence made public(in which the tool was a firearm or 2) created an opportunity for "antigunsters".And so publicity coupled with current events is an effective means for leeway in democracy? While those viewing through the looking glass say-that on a worldwide scale we will see the statistics long supporting the action of these "opportunists"? Also we see that people understand that "gun in hand' and "bullet in brain" are two seperate sentences with different meanings.Could it be that the thin line seperating the 2 is a single stroke of madness festering in a humanbeing?As for Cannibis, California has long been supportive. Why is Colorado just getting to it? Do the politics there work any slower? Or could it also have something to do with current events?
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Re: Idle Talk with Shritzu

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:39 am

Shritzu wrote:Most curious. So it is argued by some that misfortune here is opportunity somewhere else. That violence made public(in which the tool was a firearm or 2) created an opportunity for "antigunsters".And so publicity coupled with current events is an effective means for leeway in democracy?


Seize the day. That and politics is often about the events of recent days, governments distracted from long term plans by the issue of the moment, one they never saw coming. A recent scandal or a recent terrorist attack may focus minds (ok, we really need to sort out our flood defences) or cause a something must be done need to legislate (a terrorist attack seems to lead to a lot of security legislation being proposed). That sort of pressure does lead to a mess sometimes.

Sometimes those that wish to see change (tighter gun controls, a responsible press, reform of energy companies) when it means there is a powerful vested interest, know that they have to find the right time. One outcome of the Mitchell affair is it may allow reform of the police as the police and it's federation have been big blockers of reform but may now be cowed into accepting change. Reforms that otherwise would see protests and press camapigns.

While those viewing through the looking glass say-that on a worldwide scale we will see the statistics long supporting the action of these "opportunists"?


Eh, whenever there is debate there seems to be a need to insult the opponents of whatever view you hold. As for stats, the NRA or gun supporters will, and have, find ones that support their argument for more and more guns. They have already used the UK ones to justify their position as Shi pointed to.
Also we see that people understand that "gun in hand' and "bullet in brain" are two seperate sentences with different meanings.Could it be that the thin line seperating the 2 is a single stroke of madness festering in a humanbeing?


I have no idea what you mean?

As for Cannibis, California has long been supportive. Why is Colorado just getting to it? Do the politics there work any slower? Or could it also have something to do with current events?


I'm from a different country so can't speak for Colorado. They may, just like the UK, be leaning towards that different approach to drugs.
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Re: Idle Talk with Shritzu

Unread postby Shritzu » Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:17 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:I have no idea what you mean

Some suggest that a gun in hand is harmless, it is the trigger being pulled that becomes harmful. Could the adhesive for these 2 argued to be the same be none other than poor mental health care? Or something else?
Dong Zhou wrote:I'm from a different country so can't speak for Colorado. They may, just like the UK, be leaning towards that different approach to drugs.

But why "NOW"?
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Re: Idle Talk with Shritzu

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:54 am

Ah, the guns don't kill people, people kill people argument. The opposition will say guns just make it a whole lot easier. As for wider issues like mental health, there is something. Other countries with not very strong gun control laws may have their own problems but that kind of killing doesn't seem to occur that often. Had the NRA been clever and not just gone on a rant, they could have made a point that there seems to be something wrong in the culture.

As for why now, been building for a few years. The war on drugs is deemed to have failed, events in Mexico not helping there, and some countries have legalized so now others are looking at that with interest. Which I think I said before
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Re: Idle Talk with Shritzu

Unread postby Shritzu » Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:28 am

Interesting-
Dong Zhou wrote:Ah, the guns don't kill people, people kill people argument. The opposition will say guns just make it a whole lot easier. As for wider issues like mental health, there is something. Other countries with not very strong gun control laws may have their own problems but that kind of killing doesn't seem to occur that often. Had the NRA been clever and not just gone on a rant, they could have made a point that there seems to be something wrong in the culture.

As for why now, been building for a few years. The war on drugs is deemed to have failed, events in Mexico not helping there, and some countries have legalized so now others are looking at that with interest. Which I think I said before

If i may...do you think the 2012 election results may contribute to this?
Also one of google's executives is planning a flight to north korea,which allows it's citizens an intranet but no internet access,any idea why?
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