Idle Talk with Shritzu

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Re: Idle Talk with Shritzu

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:27 pm

I'm guessing Shritzu has other questions/topics he wishes to discuss?

Jordan wrote:caused by murderers

and in this case an autist


This doesn't seem to be the first time a man of questionable mental health has been able to get a gun to kill people with in America.

Jordan wrote:caused by drug laws


Well unless America and Mexico are going to change their drug laws, then they should look at other things they can do. Even if they are going to change drug laws, would still be a good idea to look at other things to help deal with the issues. Like better border work so gangsters get arrested when they try to cross and cutting easy access to guns to criminals through changes to gun control.

Jordan wrote:none of it. guns aren't the problem in any case.


You may believe that and many others do. Not sure your right but your entitled to that view without insult.

Surely though, others who disagree in America and outside it (like the majority of the UK) are entitled to their view that American's policy on gun control is, at least part of, the problem without the insults?
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Re: Idle Talk with Shritzu

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:21 pm

I don't agree with how critical many English people are when it comes to discussing the US policy on gun ownership. As far as I’m concerned most of them are ignorant of the cultural reasons behind the strong feelings for guns and are just as indoctrinated about our system being right as you are about yours being right (I'm not including Dong in this).

However, saying that a meme has gone viral, amongst the said friends, that does make a valid point. In 1996 there was a shooting in a primary school in Scotland where 16 children and a teacher were killed. In the following outrage the UK banned all cartridge ammunition handguns. We haven't had a single school shooting since, how many have there been in the US?

That said we have had knife attacks but with far lower casualty rates.

So, I think its ridiculous to claim that getting rid of guns won't led to less attacks, we have evidence of that in the UK. However what I am open to is the argument that you feel it is worth the risk of attacks to keep your civil rights. Personally I don't think it is worth the risk and I'm glad I live in the UK but I can understand why, when you've been bought up in a society that allows guns, you'd be opposed to gun restriction.

What I’m getting at is what is James' sig (I know that it wasn’t written in relation to gun ownership but I don’t think it makes my point any less valid): “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”— Ben Franklin

Basically if you feel that the additional safety isn't worth the loss of a right that you deem as important, both as an individual and as a society as a whole then I don’t think it would be right for you to loss that right.

Does that make sense?
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Re: Idle Talk with Shritzu

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:56 pm

Sun Fin wrote:I don't agree with how critical many English people are when it comes to discussing the US policy on gun ownership. As far as I’m concerned most of them are ignorant of the cultural reasons behind the strong feelings for guns and are just as indoctrinated about our system being right as you are about yours being right (I'm not including Dong in this).


Feel free to include me under the ignorant on this one. While I acknowledge we need to tweak the laws so the national rifle team can prepare for tournaments, I wouldn't even give more of the police a gun. It's the culture I was brought up i so, you can imagine how alien the idea of the populace at large wielding guns is to me. I'll freely admit it is one of those things where I can't get my head around the idea
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Re: Idle Talk with Shritzu

Unread postby SunXia » Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:32 pm

I remember the Dunblane Massacre was traumatic even for kids to see on television of why someone would do that and how it was allowed!! We has services for it for weeks because it was such an alien thing to happen and my peers just kept asking questions every day for months!! So glad they don't happen all the time here, so glad I don't live in a world where it's likely that all except one child in a class can be slaughtered!! Would never be able to rest for the safety of my future little'uns if they appear!!
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Re: Idle Talk with Shritzu

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:51 pm

Sun Fin wrote:I don't agree with how critical many English people are when it comes to discussing the US policy on gun ownership. As far as I’m concerned most of them are ignorant of the cultural reasons behind the strong feelings for guns and are just as indoctrinated about our system being right as you are about yours being right (I'm not including Dong in this).


Agreed. And vice-versa. It is completely alien to me to be a unguarded and defenseless citizen. I grew up in a culture where defending one's self as well using firearms was customary.

I also find it weird how nervous people with guns seems to make yall. We have so many guns in America I'd wager it dwarfs the amount of crimes their used in. But I get that, as you say, its a matter of upbringing.

We haven't had a single school shooting since, how many have there been in the US?

That said we have had knife attacks but with far lower casualty rates.

So, I think its ridiculous to claim that getting rid of guns won't led to less attacks, we have evidence of that in the UK.


Before I respond I'd like to ask if reports about increased gun crime in the UK are true or just the overhyped story of the moment?

But either way most folks don't argue that civilians utilizing guns in shootings would diminish if we simply did away with firearms all together. However, even basic statistics show that from your own country (not referencing the increase articles above) that firearms can and are still used by criminals.


However what I am open to is the argument that you feel it is worth the risk of attacks to keep your civil rights. Personally I don't think it is worth the risk and I'm glad I live in the UK but I can understand why, when you've been bought up in a society that allows guns, you'd be opposed to gun restriction.


Here I agree. I think its a cross we have bear because we embrace our constitutional right to bear arms. It is something we hold very dear and central. The idea that I couldn't defend my home, shoot recreationally, or hunt is bonkers to me.


Basically if you feel that the additional safety isn't worth the loss of a right that you deem as important, both as an individual and as a society as a whole then I don’t think it would be right for you to loss that right.

Does that make sense?


If I'm understanding correctly, you're saying that if we think that losing the right isnt worth a small amount of additional cover protection then we shouldn't give up the right? If so, I agree. If I read you wrong I apologize.
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Re: Idle Talk with Shritzu

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:49 pm

Shikanosuke wrote:
Before I respond I'd like to ask if reports about increased gun crime in the UK are true or just the overhyped story of the moment?

But either way most folks don't argue that civilians utilizing guns in shootings would diminish if we simply did away with firearms all together. However, even basic statistics show that from your own country (not referencing the increase articles above) that firearms can and are still used by criminals.


I'll be honest I don't really know, II suspect that in the immediate aftermath of the ban there was a resurgence of gun crime, much like after the recent shootings there were a surge of people buying guns. However I've heard nothing about it for several years now and I'd guess it has faded away. Maybe Dong or someone will be able to come in with more detail.

Anyway your second paragraph was what I was getting at, most people in the UK would prefer to live somewhere where only those with criminal connections can get guns. Organised crime doesn’t affect your average civilian as much, most of the crimes guns are used in are situations where people have got involved in a dangerous situation in the first place (i.e. drugs, gangs etc) rather than a rogue citizen shooting up a school. Therefore it doesn’t affect many of us. Personally I'd prefer to see more armed police and relax the regulations on them but I seem to be a minority here.

Shikanosuke wrote:If I'm understanding correctly, you're saying that if we think that losing the right isnt worth a small amount of additional cover protection then we shouldn't give up the right? If so, I agree. If I read you wrong I apologize.


Yeah you understood me. I wouldn't have used the phrasing 'a small amount of' but that’s why I'm happy with living in the UK and you in the US.
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Re: Idle Talk with Shritzu

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:23 am

Sun Fin wrote:
I'll be honest I don't really know, II suspect that in the immediate aftermath of the ban there was a resurgence of gun crime, much like after the recent shootings there were a surge of people buying guns. However I've heard nothing about it for several years now and I'd guess it has faded away. Maybe Dong or someone will be able to come in with more detail.


Fair enough. Many of the articles I've cursorily read seem to point in opposite directions.

Anyway your second paragraph was what I was getting at, most people in the UK would prefer to live somewhere where only those with criminal connections can get guns. Organised crime doesn’t affect your average civilian as much, most of the crimes guns are used in are situations where people have got involved in a dangerous situation in the first place (i.e. drugs, gangs etc) rather than a rogue citizen shooting up a school. Therefore it doesn’t affect many of us.


And that is what I think many of us find unacceptable. Criminals are everywhere, especially in urban areas. The idea of allowing them (criminals) to have guns, but not law-abiding citizens to use them to defend against them never sits well with Americans.
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Re: Idle Talk with Shritzu

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:58 pm

Shikanosuke wrote:
Agreed. And vice-versa. It is completely alien to me to be a unguarded and defenseless citizen. I grew up in a culture where defending one's self as well using firearms was customary.

I also find it weird how nervous people with guns seems to make yall. We have so many guns in America I'd wager it dwarfs the amount of crimes their used in. But I get that, as you say, its a matter of upbringing.


Sorry if this is annoying, I just find discussing cultural differences rather intresting.

The thing is, we may not feel safe (I do feel safe but the general population doesn't seem to) but that more reflects a tendency to be gloomy, youths on the streets, fear of knife crime, distrust of offical stats and issues with the police (no bobby on the street, why bother reporting most crimes nowadays as police won't bother exctra). Nobody here suggests the answer to being more safe is everyone having a gun and if someone moved in next door with a gun, we would probably all feel uneasy.

I can see why people enjoy target shooting, had a go at it myself when a lot younger, but everyone having guns? That would freak me out.

Before I respond I'd like to ask if reports about increased gun crime in the UK are true or just the overhyped story of the moment?

But either way most folks don't argue that civilians utilizing guns in shootings would diminish if we simply did away with firearms all together. However, even basic statistics show that from your own country (not referencing the increase articles above) that firearms can and are still used by criminals.


I would assume, given they linked to the Daily Mail (admittedly prone to scaremongering of the highest order) and the government didn't try to deny it but agreed it was an issue, that it is probably true. It was a very minor story here though, knife crime is the one that gets the headlines these days, that is the big story of that type. Sometimes the rise of gangs, I think particularly from Turkey, in London or Manchester gets a news article or two. Guns aren't an issue among the press here as Sun Fin said

I thought the reaction of the two Americans vs the three British politicians was intresting. For the Americans, it was proof that guns are good and gun-controls will only lead to more gun-crime (might be proof that the UK needs to look at other models) whereas for the British, it was a call for better enforcement and more needing to be done about gangs.

Here I agree. I think its a cross we have bear because we embrace our constitutional right to bear arms. It is something we hold very dear and central. The idea that I couldn't defend my home, shoot recreationally, or hunt is bonkers to me.


when we think of hunting, we think very rich horse-riders in weird clothes chasing foxes. It probably helps that we don't have the animals for hunting aside from deer.
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Re: Idle Talk with Shritzu

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:52 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
Sorry if this is annoying, I just find discussing cultural differences rather intresting.


8-) Not at all. I do as well.

The thing is, we may not feel safe (I do feel safe but the general population doesn't seem to) but that more reflects a tendency to be gloomy, youths on the streets, fear of knife crime, distrust of offical stats and issues with the police (no bobby on the street, why bother reporting most crimes nowadays as police won't bother exctra). Nobody here suggests the answer to being more safe is everyone having a gun and if someone moved in next door with a gun, we would probably all feel uneasy.


I guess my question is with distrust of police, fear of knife crime, etc why wouldn't you feel more safe armed?

I can see why people enjoy target shooting, had a go at it myself when a lot younger, but everyone having guns? That would freak me out.


Well the thing is it really isn't everyone having guns. For one, it is just the right to have firearms. For another, like all rights it isn't unlimited and there are qualifications in place of who is allowed to have a gun. One of the reasons is doesn't freak us out (I believe) is that none of the reasons are for offensive purposes. One of them is defensive. Another, as you note, is recreatioanl shooting. And the last is as a tool. Some folks actually hunt for food and sport. It's a big deal for a lot of folks to hunt.

]

I would assume, given they linked to the Daily Mail (admittedly prone to scaremongering of the highest order) and the government didn't try to deny it but agreed it was an issue, that it is probably true. It was a very minor story here though, knife crime is the one that gets the headlines these days, that is the big story of that type. Sometimes the rise of gangs, I think particularly from Turkey, in London or Manchester gets a news article or two. Guns aren't an issue among the press here as Sun Fin said


Is suggested solutions to knife crime to limit access to knives?



when we think of hunting, we think very rich horse-riders in weird clothes chasing foxes. It probably helps that we don't have the animals for hunting aside from deer.


:lol: And thats an interesting cultural difference. When we think of hunting we have alot of think of. It can be everyday folks who just hunt game such as deer or duck for food. We could think of pest control like shooting squirrels. Or we could think of big game hunters. Either way I think its part of our cultural identity (and nowadays a big industry as well). Not to mention I think the seasons are regulated and hunting encouraged in part so that we one species doesn't overpopulate.
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Re: Idle Talk with Shritzu

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:36 pm

Shikanosuke wrote:I guess my question is with distrust of police, fear of knife crime, etc why wouldn't you feel more safe armed?


There is general belief here that if people are armed, that they are more likely to get up for a fight or put their hand on their gun/knife/teddy.

On a personal level? I don't trust the general populace to use a weapon sensibly or keep it locked up so those who shouldn't have them don't get them. I really wouldn't have trusted the people in my last neighbourhood to use guns sensibly, as nice as some of them were.

Shikanosuke wrote:Well the thing is it really isn't everyone having guns. For one, it is just the right to have firearms. For another, like all rights it isn't unlimited and there are qualifications in place of who is allowed to have a gun.


It doesn't seem to be that effective, at least in America, though. Which wouldn't be such an issue if we mostly looked at another country when we think gun control but when we think guns, we think of you guys.

Shikanosuke wrote: One of the reasons is doesn't freak us out (I believe) is that none of the reasons are for offensive purposes. One of them is defensive. Another, as you note, is recreatioanl shooting. And the last is as a tool. Some folks actually hunt for food and sport. It's a big deal for a lot of folks to hunt.


We fail to see it as a defensive thing though, we see it and we go "why the hell do you have a gun" and even if you say protection we ask the same thing. You would pretty much have to be a Mafia target before people didn't back away slowly.

Shooting as a hobby would probably get you weird looks unfortunately. So would hunting unless as a job. A job like farming or some such would probably be the only acceptable way in the UK to explain having a gun.

Shikanosuke wrote:Is suggested solutions to knife crime to limit access to knives?


To an extent though obviously it can't be banned in the home. It isn't utterly banned outside but if your carrying one on your person and police spot it then your in trouble. In certain area's (and particularly if your non-white), the police are able to stop and search to ensure your not carrying a knife.

Those who carry knife's as simple protection are encouraged not to do so.

Shikanosuke wrote:And thats an interesting cultural difference. When we think of hunting we have alot of think of. It can be everyday folks who just hunt game such as deer or duck for food. We could think of pest control like shooting squirrels. Or we could think of big game hunters. Either way I think its part of our cultural identity (and nowadays a big industry as well). Not to mention I think the seasons are regulated and hunting encouraged in part so that we one species doesn't overpopulate.


We do pest control! Not sure if that sort of thing goes to specialists or the farmers get rounded up for it
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