Russia vs. Putin

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Re: Russia vs. Putin

Unread postby Shen Ai » Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:20 pm

Doesn't weakening the current regime set it up for take over by loons that Putin has kept at bay all these years?
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Re: Russia vs. Putin

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:19 pm

Russia's hardly a failed state. It's as much a failed state as 1/2 the world is.

Again, all you're talking about is weakening the regime and weakening Putin. For whatever human rights abuses and massive scales of corruption he has undertaken (like there has been a single Russian government which doesn't have that), his track record are there for people to see: under Putin Russia has grown massively more wealthy and powerful compared to Yeltsin. The question on my mind, and I'm sure the question on a lot of people's minds, is: what will the opposition do for Russia in power? Will it make it free-er? fairer? more egalitarian? more nationalistic?

The Bolsheviks didn't overthrow the Tsar by just painting how bad the Tsar is, they also presented an alternative vision which appealed to and united enough of Russia to force a revolution.
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Re: Russia vs. Putin

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:03 am

Crazedmongoose wrote:Again, all you're talking about is weakening the regime and weakening Putin. For whatever human rights abuses and massive scales of corruption he has undertaken (like there has been a single Russian government which doesn't have that), his track record are there for people to see: under Putin Russia has grown massively more wealthy and powerful compared to Yeltsin. The question on my mind, and I'm sure the question on a lot of people's minds, is: what will the opposition do for Russia in power? Will it make it free-er? fairer? more egalitarian? more nationalistic?

The Bolsheviks didn't overthrow the Tsar by just painting how bad the Tsar is, they also presented an alternative vision which appealed to and united enough of Russia to force a revolution.


Well, I have a rather dim view of the Bolsheviks (read too much Solzhenitsyn and Berdyaev, maybe), but I do agree with this point on the whole. Putin did, after all, bring paying work back to Russia after it had been basically stolen outright and sold off on the streetside by Yeltsin's pack of thugs and gangsters, to the tune of billions of dollars and entire sectors and industries. I agree completely with Crazedmongoose here (no surprise): it ain't gonna work just trying to delegitimise the guy who happens to be at the top. But more than that, it ain't gonna work even if you replace the guy at the top, either. (And I'm not saying this just because Alexei Navalny is a racist cockroach, either.) If you want to get rid of corruption, even its more sanitised form nowadays, you have to start by redesigning institutions such that the executive doesn't wield such uncontrolled power vis-a-vis the legislature.
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Re: Russia vs. Putin

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:28 am

Slightly off topic, but even keeping in mind the Bolshevik's ruthless power plays and sometimes outrageous cruelty (esp. in the purges and the forced collectivisation of farms and etc and etc), I still have a conciliatory view of them pre-Stalin.

USSR for me is just a long regrettable list of "what-ifs". The biggest being what if Hitler never invaded the USSR and the USSR were given the chance to complete their last five year plan which would have produced consumer and comfort goods which, if it were any bit as effective as the first two five year plans (massive death rate aside), would have drastically improved the average Russian's quality of life.


edit: Also anything Putin has done wrong, Yeltsin has done far far worse.
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Re: Russia vs. Putin

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:42 pm

Mikhail Khodorkovsky's and Platon Lebedev case, among others is to be reviewed and President/Prime Minister Medvedev is asking the Justice Ministry to explain why it refused to register the People’s Freedom Party. Not sure if they are now deemed not a threat with the election over or if this is something relatively harmless that the authorities can offer the opposition to make themselves look better and defuse tensions a little.

Crazedmongoose wrote:I've worked in electoral politics and am a general avid follower of politics, the key is to try to bring people with you. In Australia we had 11 years of vicious anti-Howardism in the left, and in the UK a similar period of anti-Thatcherism in the 80's (and anti-Reaganism in the US). None of them worked.

*snip*

And right now the opposition doesn't HAVE a better alternative to present. What will it be? Back to Yeltsin's shock economic desolation? Back to the communists? To the (imo very frightening) nationalists?


I would also suggest the 2010 election here to a degree. Even with Labour's reputation and that of Brown being pilloried from all sides, the electorate never voted in either opposition party, Lib Dems lost seats and the Tories couldn't get a majority. With many blaming Cameron and Hilton for not giving a vision that the people understood and could get behind.

I find the British press reaction to recent events intresting. Putin is very unpopular here, mostly due to allegations of assassination in our lands+being the big regional threat, and all our media would dance in the streets if he was to be replaced. They are doing their best to portray him as less manly then he presents himself which is an odd tactic. Yet even they think Putin could have won without cheating and they aren't quite doing the "lack of democracy is the cause of Putin's slipping power", more suggesting Putin's sign of contempt for the system and the corruption is doing the damage. There is nobody that the media are getting behind or suggesting really represents the voice of the people. They are saying Putin is weaker and will start losing his grip but that may just be the media being ever hopeful.
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Re: Russia vs. Putin

Unread postby Tigger of Kai » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:24 pm

At times like this, I of course turn to the "RT" television channel for information. Last December, I thought it a bit strange that, while many other channels had the Russian protests as their lead story, on this one it was all criticism of Hillary Clinton and American news reporters. I tuned in today, and again there was nothing about Russia. The first thing the newscaster said was that "Obama was pulling a fast one" by moving a summit to Camp David. She then recited a sarcastic poem about John McCain, and concluded with some unfavorable comments about Santorum and Gingrich.
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Re: Russia vs. Putin

Unread postby Shen Ai » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:04 pm

So I heard that Putin just won his third term. Impressive, but I don't think anyone expected him to loose.
I've a brave warrior in my army. Shen Ai is his name, and he can slay this Hua Xiong.

Wei has no more famous commanders, Shen Ai takes lead of the vanguard!

Even a commoner on the street knows what Shen Ai is thinking!
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Re: Russia vs. Putin

Unread postby Alicanto » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:08 am

Well, the first attempt was unsuccessful. Fortunatelly, everyone who was detained at "the indefinite meeting with a State Duma deputy" is freed now. So, they want to pretend that everything is quiet and are afraid of provoking a backlash. The situation is different in St. Petersburg, where the action was unauthorized from the beginning. Violent actions of the police were answered with molotov cocktails. More than 300 people were detained including the majority of nationalist leaders who are still not freed. I hope this will happen soon. We'll need them on the 10th.

An amusing fact: now there is an insane number of OMON(Special Purpose Police Unit - armoured pigs with helmets, shields and sticks who sold their souls to the regime. We call them "cosmonauts".) in Moscow. The regime made another rash decision and almost emptied the Central Russia to cover Moscow. An ordinary policeman neither want nor able to stop protesters. At the same time the local authorities of some big cities did not authorize the protest actions. This haven't led to any significant consequences, because unlike the 24th of December and the 4th of February this time the protest actions across the country were quite weak. However, a disallowed and quite numerous rally and march took place in Ekaterinburg without any reaction from the police. In Nizhni Novgorod the protesters besieged and captured the kremlin and hung the black-yellow-white flag on its gates, but upon learning the news from Moscow retreated with a little and unsuccessful interference by the police.

It was in Nizhni Novgorod where we started to gather our protest army to drive out another crook and thieves from Moscow in 1612. We did the same with a French crook and thief in 1812. Guess what we are going to do this year. :twisted:

Photos from Moscow:
http://zyalt.livejournal.com/532282.html
http://martin-sqare.livejournal.com/161426.html
http://raskalov-vit.livejournal.com/125235.html
http://chistoprudov.livejournal.com/93477.html
http://taek.livejournal.com/34402.html
http://great-ross.livejournal.com/196842.html

To be continued... :wink:
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Re: Russia vs. Putin

Unread postby Shen Ai » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:57 pm

Biting off a bit more than the country can chew didn't help in 1853 though...
I've a brave warrior in my army. Shen Ai is his name, and he can slay this Hua Xiong.

Wei has no more famous commanders, Shen Ai takes lead of the vanguard!

Even a commoner on the street knows what Shen Ai is thinking!
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Re: Russia vs. Putin

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:57 pm

Since we don't have a general Russia thread

Apparently since Putin announced he was running for President, and has tripped since Putin took office, lots of capital has been taken out of Russia and into other countries. £22 billion for the first quarter of this year and is expected to be £50 million by end of the year.

Will this hurt Russia's economy or just a sign that rich Russians are wary of Putin and the path he may go down?
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