Attacks in Norway

Discuss events that have an impact on you and the world today. A home for honest, serious, and open discussion.

Re: Attacks in Norway

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:23 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:I never said that globalization meant we should deregulate everything.


To be fair, you never did say that. But may I assume then, that you have not heard of the 'Washington Consensus' (and all of the crush-the-poor-underheel policies it has tended to entail)? For someone who is so insistent that we cannot go back and change the facts of history, you have quite a... unique view of the way globalisation tends to play out.

Dong Zhou wrote:Should you really have laughed then brought up a recent tragedy?


Dude. I thought the Brits practically invented black humour.

It wasn't as though I was laughing at the people who got killed, after all, more the attitude that is surprised that it could ever have taken place.

Dong Zhou wrote:Because Europe is not filled with one kind of people? Because no country has people who agree on everything or share exactly the same beliefs or language? England is a Christian country, the rising Muslim population doesn't mean that isn't true. So rising extremism, which I have talked about in this very thread so haven't ignored, doesn't mean that we haven't seen an increasingly liberal and more tolerant Europe.

The extremists are enabled by discontent from those who haven't got as far as they should have. Rather then look at reasons why (they weren't as capable as they thought, education system, 100% employment has been destroyed by technical and economic advances), they look to blame others. Immigrants is an easy excuse and with the recession, brought on by deregulation, personal debts, housing bubble and poor banking among others, more and more people are looking for why their life sucks.


So, then... maybe we shouldn't be riding hell-bent for leather toward economic 'advances' which drive hardworking men and women without an intricate knowledge of political and economic systems into the arms of extremists? Ever considered that as a possibility?

Dong Zhou wrote:Sorry, when did trade alliances and economic arrangements not count as part of globalisation?


You're confusing causes with effects.

The newest spate of post-Cold War globalism has taken place completely by design, under the auspices of the elites of a few core nations. It took awhile for the nations of the periphery to catch on, but once they did, some of them (China, Brazil, Argentina, Venezuela, Belarus &c.) began looking for alternatives - and yes, these alternatives did incorporate some aspects of globalism, some technologies and some institutional designs. But they were much more geared toward generating egalitarian opportunities and a level playing field than the Washington Consensus was.

Dong Zhou wrote:The Confucians like the ones in the 3kingdoms? The non tax paying, "Mandate of Heaven", attempt to suppress alternative advisers to the Emperor, bloody warfare Confucians?


Confucians did pay taxes - actually, you were more likely to find them collecting them. Also, though they were rightly fearful of alternative interpretations of Imperial legitimacy (like the Legalists got under Qin Shihuang), they could hardly be called proponents of 'bloody warfare'. Their idea of a just king was one who didn't have to resort to harsh punishments, and one who could rule by example rather than by waging war or shedding blood. Now, they certainly did have their problems - nepotism, elitism, a certain disdain (particularly among later theorists) for the abilities of women. But your characterisation of them here is completely unfair - one would think you'd never picked up a single one of the 四书 or the 五经.

Dong Zhou wrote:The ancient Greeks who waged war on each other quite a lot?


:roll: Like every other nation in history, dude.

Dong Zhou wrote:The early Christians who seemed to spend a lot of time trying to shut up rival Christian sects?


You are confusing debate - which got often quite heated and broke out in the occasional instance of hooliganism - with repression. The fact that the Arians, the Monophysites, the Nestorians have all survived to the present day seems to indicate the early Christians weren't as repressive in trying to 'shut [them] up' as you seem to be insinuating they were.

Christianity didn't really become repressive until the 1200's, by which time it had been so heavily bureaucratised and wedded to state power that it found it could as simply wipe people out as seek to convert them. Hence, the Crusades, the pogroms, the purging of the Albigensians, the Spanish Inquisition - the like of which had not truly been seen before.

Dong Zhou wrote:Is it alright if I remain grateful that I wasn't left outside at birth as I believe some of the Greeks did?


Criminy, I wasn't talking about Lykurgos, as should have been f#@king obvious! Sokrates, Plato and Aristoteles (of whom I was speaking, from the content of what I was saying) were not Spartan, they were Athenian, and they certainly weren't in the habit of leaving weak children outside to die.

Besides, how is what the Spartans did any different from the globalist attitude toward businesses in developing nations (or in developed nations, for that matter)? Throw them all in the arena with established multinationals to be eaten; may the strongest ones survive - but in this case it's not just children, it's entire industries, entire livelihoods and families that are destroyed. And as for the unemployed, let them retrain themselves at their own expense, and let them eat cake while they're at it! Oh, how enlightened we are that we visit such treatment on our adults as well as our children. :roll:

Dong Zhou wrote:Why do you assume that I don't want the laws toughened up to prevent human right abuses? Your acting like I said "We should encourage pollution of our rivers, hacking of people's phones and the destruction of the planet. Let's go on a mass murdering spree."


That's a moot question based off of a bad assumption. You said explicitly that you wanted tougher laws, but you had no problem with businesses being 'successful' at the expense of others or of the society as long as they did it within those bounds; I was working from there.

Laws will only get you so far. Laws are only the tip of the iceberg that dictates how people behave. If there's nothing to prevent people from getting caught polluting rivers, hacking phones, destroying the planet and murdering except laws forbidding them, people will attempt to find ways to get around them. Certainly, laws can have an educational and conscience-building effect, but that isn't their primary purpose.

What I have a problem with is the idea that success is its own justification for the means of getting there, or that it is desirable as an end in and of itself.

Dong Zhou wrote:Yeah, unfortunately rich people and successful people do, bar the odd saint, tend to have crushed quite a few on the way. I have seen nothing from local businesses, including the one my grand-father's have owned, that suggest they would be any better.


Huh. My grandparents were both small businessmen too - a New England small farmer and a Providence pharmacist, respectively. And they both had a reputation of going out of their way to help their neighbours (my maternal grandfather is still a member of a dairy farmers' cooperative), not to profit or seek to expand at their neighbours' or their country's expense. I guess that makes them saints? :?
Some more blood, Chekov. The needle won't hurt, Chekov. Take off your shirt, Chekov. Roll over, Chekov. Breathe deeply, Chekov. Blood sample, Chekov! Marrow sample, Chekov! Skin sample, Chekov! If I live long enough... I'm going to run out of samples.
User avatar
WeiWenDi
Hedgehog Emperor
 
Posts: 3833
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:09 am
Location: L'Étoile du Nord

Re: Attacks in Norway

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:24 pm

Humidity (I think) has given me an asthma attack that has left me feeling under the weather still but have found a thread for us WWD.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 15871
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Attacks in Norway

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:24 am

The trial of Anders Behring Breivik has started in Norway after a second report found the mass-murderer sane. Trial had a small delay after one of the judges, Thomas Indrebo, was discovered to posted on facebook the day after the massacre that the death penalty was the only suitable punishment. All three lawyers complained about said comment and he was replaced.

The reaction of the press over here has been the equivalent of a standing ovation for Norway. For refusing to compromise their belief's but to stick to the old system, to take the man to trial without brining in harsher laws and for sticking to the system, including giving Breivik a handshake. Dignity by the victims and their relatives and one site offering a button which removes news of the trial has also been noted. Defense lawyer Geir Lippestad has also won a lot of praise for the difficult task ahead. Though I do wonder if showing the prosecution on TV but not Breivik's defense is the best idea though I imagine the desicion is well intended.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 15871
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Attacks in Norway

Unread postby Jordan » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:10 am

There seems to be a trend in many European countries of growing hostility between Islamists and nativists. I guess it has followed a surge of immigration from people living in the Middle East and Turkey to Western European democracies.

I don't think this is the first or last instance that manifests this hostility. It's my observation that this is becoming an increasingly difficult problem for European citizens as well as their governments. Neither side is really in the right, but it's been a common trend throughout history for tension to exist between new immigrants and native citizens. There is a lot of irrational anger by extreme xenophobes. On the other side you have extremist Muslims who some perceive as a threat to secularism (these are a minority in my opinion, though).

As for globalization vs. isolationism...the most important thing that needs to happen is a reduction of global population. This is either the source or at least is related to all other problems. We cannot be sustainable when our numbers keep increasing.
User avatar
Jordan
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 5884
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:52 am

Re: Attacks in Norway

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:14 pm

How has the press gone onto video games in regards the trial? Wouldn't the way he got weapons and practiced with them, while on steroids, be more of an issue? I have seen more "stop blaming video games" articles then attacking ones but seems a bizarre discussion to be having under the circumstances.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 15871
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Attacks in Norway

Unread postby Jordan » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:36 am

I find it humorous that a lot of articles mentioned he played Call of Duty or something.

Call of Duty...you know, it's one of the world's most popular and best-selling video games, which millions of people have played. It comes as a surprise that one person who played the game, out of millions, was a lunatic? Haha. They should find every movie and book he's read and start mentioning those in news articles as well.
User avatar
Jordan
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 5884
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:52 am

Re: Attacks in Norway

Unread postby SunXia » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:51 am

I do think bringing Call Of Duty into it as really stupid, the dude is insane and has no morality when it concerns human life, that did not come from a video game, that came from him and his own mental thoughts!!
If becoming enlightened or an intellectual means I must become arrogant and coldly cynical about the world around me then I'd gladly remain a fool for the rest of my life!!

I'm Out4Marriage!!!Are You??

It is a CHOICE!!
User avatar
SunXia
Warrior Princess
Warrior Princess
 
Posts: 6555
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:48 pm
Location: Keeping Evils from this world at bay...with a smile!!

Re: Attacks in Norway

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:07 pm

Anders Breivik found sane, sentenced to be held in isolation. A minimum of 10 years but the full sentence is 21 years, which may be extended if, at the time, he is still considered a danger.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 15871
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Attacks in Norway

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:13 pm

I don't think that anyone among my direct acquaintance actually felt that Breivik was suffering from clinical insanity and inability to tell right from wrong so much as labouring under a completely deluded and anti-human political vision. In that, I actually find myself in agreement with Breivik's defence and ultimately with the court decision to send him to prison. This decision also thrusts some level of responsibility back on the people who influenced Breivik, who otherwise would be able to claim that he was just a lone nut, and continue unabated spouting their venom against immigrants, clamoring for more war in the Middle East and so on.
Some more blood, Chekov. The needle won't hurt, Chekov. Take off your shirt, Chekov. Roll over, Chekov. Breathe deeply, Chekov. Blood sample, Chekov! Marrow sample, Chekov! Skin sample, Chekov! If I live long enough... I'm going to run out of samples.
User avatar
WeiWenDi
Hedgehog Emperor
 
Posts: 3833
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:09 am
Location: L'Étoile du Nord

Re: Attacks in Norway

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:02 am

I think Norway's response to Breivik has actually been exemplary.

No mass hysterics, no kneejerk legislative response curbing civil liberties, no retaliatory ideological violence, no making him a martyr, no mob calls for the death sentence.

It's debatable whether the 21 years is too short. But right now, I'm so impressed by the way both the political, judicial and civil sphere of Norway has responded to Breivik that I don't feel like I know more than them enough to lecture them.



PS. If you want to read a wall of text about my rambling thoughts on Norway's response to Breivik.
User avatar
Crazedmongoose
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:10 am
Location: Sydney, Aus

PreviousNext

Return to Current Affairs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved