Middle East: Passion & Protest

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Re: Middle East: Passion & Protest

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:56 pm

Antiochus wrote:
This is my point. The fact that they have not yet resorted to outright genocide is not really a big +. Its like saying that Stalin would have been a nice chap in the eyes of history had he not attempted to genocide the Ukrainian population.


But it is when the Palestinians are attacking them. It's essentially like a young adolescent teenager continually kicking an adult in the shins and the adult refraining from bludgeoning the younger chap to death.

Again, this is wrong. Any real study of the situation leads to one conclusion: The Palestinians have made a lot more concessions than the Israelis. Not to mention that they are not the ones who sabotage the peace process. Defending Israel seems more like a matter of faith than real political insight...


It is wrong? Then I'd ask you to suggest additional options for the Palestinians, because I'm seeing none. The Palestinians are not in a position of power here. Lets say I concede the Palestinians have made more concessions, with what they have to work with that is one of the few logical options of negotiations. It seems more a matter of faith to believe the inferior power can make demands of a more entrenched, internationally respected, and powerful foe.



What do you mean ''control''? According to Israel, they have to maintain the blockade because there are still rockets that are fired from the region (which says a lot considering how hard it is to get the equipment inside Gaza). The Hamas popularity was not affected and they still get to hire young Palestinians to go on with the fight.


Again, this is about power. Power is control. Israel's blockade, which could be worse, threatens the very lifeblood of Palestine. That's only a sliver of their power. I'd consider it control if you can put the screws to your lesser neighbor merely by having a roadblock or two.


The heavy handed method of Israel failed. They killed 10 times more civilians than their opponents did, destroyed all infrastructure and even resorted to illegal weaponry and they still can't pacify the region. Yet, some still refuse to see that and even fail to acknowledge the fact that Israel is responsible for much of the hostility, particularly when they sabotage their own peace process.


This is where I don't get your rhetoric. You said they 'failed' to do this, then recognize they haven't resorted to outright war and occupation. If they wanted to, they could do it. Their 'heavy handed' methods are more akin to suppression of Hamas, almost punitively, than destroying them.




As opposed to dropping bombs in civilian areas because it is believed that Hamas fighters are there...

But that doesnt count, because... They have a US approved stamp on the bombs I guess. Heck, the homemade rockets can't even compare to the actual military grade explosive that Palestinian civilians had to deal with for decades.


Ha. If there are believed targets there, then the bombing is by definition not 'indiscriminate' (unlike Palestinian rocketfire, or terrorist bombings specifically targeting civilians). Secondly, you also seem to just gloss over the fact that, you know, Hamas both clothes themselves as civilians (in the hope, i guess, that Israel will just say 'damn, and walk away') as well actively hides behind civilians, purposefully placing their own people in harm's way.

So you'll excuse me if I'm not cowed from supporting Israel just because 'it has a US stamp of approval'. I'm sorry the Palestinians citizens are tormented by both the Israelis and their own people. Maybe they should kill the one's placing them in harm's way.



And if you read a real report, you will realize that the main issue that the Palestinian government has with its own power is that its curbed by several restrictions by the Israeli army that makes any form of real political actions by the Palestinian authority futile.


Yea, I don't believe that is the only issue. They seem to often have two governments, both spouting something different with no accountability or consistency. I don't think this is solely the work of Israel. It is also the work with two different kinds of people with two differing agendas. It ain't just all poor Palestinians trying desperately to get a working government going but they just cant because of the nasty Israelis.

Israel got it easy. It makes its rival impotent, and then use this impotence as the justification for its actions... Brilliant...


They don't have it easy. Easy would be if we didn't live in the modern era which makes the removal of a foe morally condemnable. They do have it easy in that the Palestinians don't stand a chance.


Except when they use illegal weaponry and when their leaders admit openly that they want to goad the Palestinians into conflict...


Except, meaning exception. I don't think the Palestinians are the ones being goaded either. They are shooting rockets, after all. That is an affirmative action with no hope of winning.


Its like saying that the best way to end racial problem is to commit a genocide. The fact that they have this power is irrelevant and your maintaining that argument is simply ridiculous.


No, I'm simply stating an obvious fact. I don't feel bad for a country filled with terrorists (hurting their own people) utilizing terrorsitic means against a larger and more well-supplied opponent. Period. That is realistic. Your analysis both falters and openly admits you aren't reading what I'm saying when the sixth word you use is 'best'. Optimal means best. I didn't say eliminating, which the Isrealis can do, the Palestinians is optimal. Didn't even say it is wishful, or laudable to consider. What I said is it a realistic consideration when considering Israel's power.



You refuse to look at any real reports on the issue of the negotiations, discard any illegal and immoral israeli act as being out of the norm and doing the exact opposite with the Palestinians. You are unfair.


First of all you have no conception of what I look at.
Second, I don't discard illegal acts (such as white phosphous). I've openly admitted them.
Third, its matter of fact, not perception about the kinds of warfare the two wage. The reports on Palestinians don't detail their primary use of conventional warfare, or even convential urban warfare, as their primary method of attacking. The reports consist of consistent terrorist attacks and rocket-firings into Israeli citizen territory. Indiscriminately, or targeting civilians at that. If Israel was doing that, then I would be condemning them. But your own posts illustrate they aren't.

Yes I may be unfair, so is life (which you should consider when suggesting what the Palestinians can and should do). What I am is not idealistic. You seem to ignore the terrorism which infests Palestinian land, and try to shuck the responsibility of it off on the bigger nation who can afford to deal with it (but doesn't have to). You will not convince me, as seems your persistent intention, that the Israeli's are monsters disguised as paladins, and the Palestinians are freedom fighters falsely portrayed as terrorists who would easily do the right thing if only those meddlesome jews would give them a chance.

EDIT:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/is ... n-1.354044

Heck, Palestinians even kill Jews who support them.
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Re: Middle East: Passion & Protest

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:36 pm

You will not convince me, as seems your persistent intention, that the Israeli's are monsters disguised as paladins, and the Palestinians are freedom fighters falsely portrayed as terrorists who would easily do the right thing if only those meddlesome jews would give them a chance.


Honestly, my opinion of the matter is that it is the other way around.

The Israelis are not going to give up land that was officially given to them after World War II and stand in the power of the divinely challenged. Simply put, 'if G-D has given us this land once more - we will fight whoever challenges us for it.'

There are not very many alternatives outside of the issued reservations that the Palestinians have been relocated to. And if they start directly quoting Torah verses for their actions, you may see them fully displace the Palestinians all together. Though I don't really believe that would happen.
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Re: Middle East: Passion & Protest

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:41 pm

Women march in Syria to demand jailed men be freed

Just to make mention of what is going on Syria currently. Assad and his handling of the protests in his country would seem brilliant in comparison to his failed colleagues in Tunisia and Egypt. I'm not for what he is doing however; it appears that he watched the events that played out in the two afore mentioned countries and Libya and proceeded to put out the protest fire in Syria before it could elevate to such.

Syrian Activists Report Phone, Power Blackouts Amid Government Crackdown
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Re: Middle East: Passion & Protest

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Mon May 02, 2011 3:00 am

Osama bin-Laden has been killed

This is still preliminary as they are performing a DNA test to confirm that the body retrieve is indeed his.
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Re: Middle East: Passion & Protest

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Mon May 02, 2011 3:21 am

Zhuanyong wrote:Osama bin-Laden has been killed

This is still preliminary as they are performing a DNA test to confirm that the body retrieve is indeed his.



Oorah. Score one for America, and the world I guess. President Obama is supposed to be addressing us shortly. Internet is blowing up about it.
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Re: Middle East: Passion & Protest

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Mon May 02, 2011 4:34 am

Shikanosuke wrote:Oorah. Score one for America, and the world I guess. President Obama is supposed to be addressing us shortly. Internet is blowing up about it.


Just heard a report on ABC News that the DNA test has confirmed that it was indeed Osama bin-Laden. They have not released any pictures as of yet.
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Re: Middle East: Passion & Protest

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Mon May 02, 2011 4:35 am

Zhuanyong wrote:
Just heard a report on ABC News that the DNA test has confirmed that it was indeed Osama bin-Laden. They have not released any pictures as of yet.


Odd as it is, hope they do. As well as more details on the mission, if they can.
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Re: Middle East: Passion & Protest

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Mon May 02, 2011 4:39 am

Shikanosuke wrote:Odd as it is, hope they do. As well as more details on the mission, if they can.


They mentioned that they were shocked that he was killed as easily as he was. They stated they believe that he was smoked out by a drone and subsequently that is how they believe he ended up getting shot.

An analyst mentioned, 'He was hiding in plain sight.'
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Re: Middle East: Passion & Protest

Unread postby SunXia » Mon May 02, 2011 4:39 am

Honestly don't want to see images of him!! Too many people would want to pay respects to him and would holdhis dead image as a martyr symbol when he was anything but!! He stood against democracy and freedom, those things that people are now fighting and protesting for all over the Middle East!! Glad I don't have to watch another pathetic video of him again trying to justify killing innocents, disgusting!!
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Re: Middle East: Passion & Protest

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Mon May 02, 2011 4:43 am

Zhuanyong wrote:
They mentioned that they were shocked that he was killed as easily as he was. They stated they believe that he was smoked out by a drone and subsequently that is how they believe he ended up getting shot.

An analyst mentioned, 'He was hiding in plain sight.'


That is interesting, in Pakistan no less.


SunXia wrote:Honestly don't want to see images of him!! Too many people would want to pay respects to him and would holdhis dead image as a martyr symbol when he was anything but!! He stood against democracy and freedom, those things that people are now fighting and protesting for all over the Middle East!! Glad I don't have to watch another pathetic video of him again trying to justify killing innocents, disgusting!!


True, we get to hold it up for success of America though. They got to hold up his symbolic image as the ability to strike America, or any free country, and not be caught. We remedied that today.
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