Middle East: Passion & Protest

Discuss events that have an impact on you and the world today. A home for honest, serious, and open discussion.

Re: Middle East: Passion & Protest

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:47 pm

Zhuanyong wrote:Bomb rocks Jerusalem bus stop, killing woman

Based on the story, this was the first Palestinian militant attack in several years. Seeing as most attacks are carried out on the outskirts and border cities this must have been a shock to those who were present. Especially in a place that is usually rather peaceful.


And so it goes on.
User avatar
Shikanosuke
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 4337
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:22 am
Location: US

Re: Middle East: Passion & Protest

Unread postby agga » Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:14 pm

hopefully the palestinian revolution doesn't take the form of another intifada.
造反有理!
User avatar
agga
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1063
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:45 pm

Re: Middle East: Passion & Protest

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:31 pm

agga wrote:hopefully the palestinian revolution doesn't take the form of another intifada.


They'd be sorry, again.
User avatar
Shikanosuke
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 4337
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:22 am
Location: US

Re: Middle East: Passion & Protest

Unread postby Antiochus » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:05 pm

The situation in Israel reminds me of an interview with king Abdullah II of Jordan on the Daily Show. It was during the latest swing of peace talks and it was becoming more and more obvious that it would fail because of Israel's policy to build new colonies in Palestinian lands.

With the recent murder of a jewish family in the still technically illegal colony of Itamar, its obvious that the relative peace that the country had been experiencing is reaching its breaking point. Of course, no matter what happens, the Palestinians will be identified as the guilty party because an actual condemnation of Israel is still a diplomatic impossibility, no matter what they do, be it the sabotage of a peace process or the exacerbation of tensions by maintaining a policy that is for all intents and purposes illegal. People will point fingers at the Hamas, partially rightfully so since they are still a violent belligerent, but no country will actually take a hard stance on the factions of the Israeli government led by Ehud Barak who are just as openly opposed to the peaceful resolution of the conflict (except if the Palestinian would just leave).

But in the end, I still believe that Israel is heading into a world of trouble. The demographic shift of the region is clearly going to bite them in the a** in a few decade, especially with an increasingly negative immigration balance. If Tel Aviv wants to ensure the survival of the Jewish nature of their state wile keeping it viable on the long run, they have to solve the Palestinian issue quickly. But players like Ehud Barak will ensure that the two-state solution will never be viable on the short run. In that sense, the Israeli defense minister has been a vital ally of the Hamas, which is ironic...
If they can abolish fanaticism, let us pray for the advent of the sceptics.

Raymond Aron
The Opium of the Intellectuals
User avatar
Antiochus
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2573
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 5:29 pm
Location: Sherbrooke

Re: Middle East: Passion & Protest

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:37 pm

Antiochus wrote:
With the recent murder of a jewish family in the still technically illegal colony of Itamar, its obvious that the relative peace that the country had been experiencing is reaching its breaking point. Of course, no matter what happens, the Palestinians will be identified as the guilty party because an actual condemnation of Israel is still a diplomatic impossibility, no matter what they do, be it the sabotage of a peace process or the exacerbation of tensions by maintaining a policy that is for all intents and purposes illegal. People will point fingers at the Hamas, partially rightfully so since they are still a violent belligerent, but no country will actually take a hard stance on the factions of the Israeli government led by Ehud Barak who are just as openly opposed to the peaceful resolution of the conflict (except if the Palestinian would just leave).


Hard not to support a legit government, despite its antagonistic actions, when its our only ally in the region and the opposing party can't control its people from launching attacks.


But in the end, I still believe that Israel is heading into a world of trouble.


Isreal's lived in a see turmoil since it's inception, I think it'll adapt and survive (specifically w/ our support).
User avatar
Shikanosuke
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 4337
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:22 am
Location: US

Re: Middle East: Passion & Protest

Unread postby Antiochus » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:56 pm

Shikanosuke wrote:Hard not to support a legit government, despite its antagonistic actions, when its our only ally in the region and the opposing party can't control its people from launching attacks.


Neither can Israel. Days after the murders in Itamar, an angry mob decided to ransack a Muslim neighborhood and burned the house of unharmed civilians.

Not to mention that those actions are not just antagonistic, their also illegal.

And the whole part on the lack of legitimacy of the Palestinian government is, quite frankly, Israel's own fault. The restrictions they impose on the parliamentary leaders of the Palestinian authority (even those of the Fatah) is one of the main problem.

But it doesn't matter. Israel is the only nation on earth that can sabotage an entire peace process and still get to blame the other group when the sh** hits the fan. The last round of negotiations ended with Ehud Barak basically asking Mahmoud Abbas to commit a political suicide when he relaunched the illegal colonization of the Palestinian territory and even the US asked (though gently) Israel to at least stop until the end of the negotiation.

Isreal's lived in a see turmoil since it's inception, I think it'll adapt and survive (specifically w/ our support).


Survive, perhaps, but if they don't get a hold of the demographic problem, they will have to become something quite horrific to pull it off. The Muslim population within Israel is growing significantly faster than its Jewish counterpart and its even worst when you talk about the neighboring Muslim states. If they want to maintain their Jewish national identity while remaining a viable democracy, they will have to change something.

So, yeah, your probably right that they can survive with the status-quo, but they wont thrive.
If they can abolish fanaticism, let us pray for the advent of the sceptics.

Raymond Aron
The Opium of the Intellectuals
User avatar
Antiochus
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2573
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 5:29 pm
Location: Sherbrooke

Re: Middle East: Passion & Protest

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:34 pm

Antiochus wrote:
Neither can Israel. Days after the murders in Itamar, an angry mob decided to ransack a Muslim neighborhood and burned the house of unharmed civilians.


I don't think the two are precisely analogous to prove the point. An angry response in response to terrorism is one thing, which I'm sure was eventually handled is a bit different from not being able to control the consistent outflow of rockets from your own territory. Palestine would be in a much worse situation is Israel couldn't prevent its citizens, or its military, from launching rocket attacks on Palestine.

Not to mention that those actions are not just antagonistic, their also illegal.


True, but again I'm not arguing against the fact that it is illegal. I'd still much rather support Israel (while committing illegal actions) than a terrorist-infused state.

And the whole part on the lack of legitimacy of the Palestinian government is, quite frankly, Israel's own fault. The restrictions they impose on the parliamentary leaders of the Palestinian authority (even those of the Fatah) is one of the main problem.


I disagree. Palestine is responsible for it's own actions or its not a real government and we shouldn't care.

But it doesn't matter. Israel is the only nation on earth that can sabotage an entire peace process and still get to blame the other group when the sh** hits the fan. The last round of negotiations ended with Ehud Barak basically asking Mahmoud Abbas to commit a political suicide when he relaunched the illegal colonization of the Palestinian territory and even the US asked (though gently) Israel to at least stop until the end of the negotiation.


Israel is unique in a plethora of ways. Nonetheless that they are vital to the West.


So, yeah, your probably right that they can survive with the status-quo, but they wont thrive.


The Israelis are just as resilient, maybe even more so, as those around them.
User avatar
Shikanosuke
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 4337
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:22 am
Location: US

Re: Middle East: Passion & Protest

Unread postby Antiochus » Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:04 pm

Shikanosuke wrote:I don't think the two are precisely analogous to prove the point. An angry response in response to terrorism is one thing, which I'm sure was eventually handled is a bit different from not being able to control the consistent outflow of rockets from your own territory. Palestine would be in a much worse situation is Israel couldn't prevent its citizens, or its military, from launching rocket attacks on Palestine.


Both sides have the nasty tendency to see their actions as an angry response to illegal acts and, to a degree, their both right. Sometimes, I can't help but to agree that the only difference between both sides is a government sanction and a ''US FRIENDLY'' stamp on the doorstep of the Knesset.

True, but again I'm not arguing against the fact that it is illegal. I'd still much rather support Israel (while committing illegal actions) than a terrorist-infused state.


And thats part of the problem. Even when the Palestinians do nothing wrong, like during the last round of negotiations, Israel can sabotage the whole process without even getting a slap on the wrist. Heck, much of the Palestinian trouble is directly caused by Israeli intervention. The Hamas was funded by Israel to form an opposition to the then more violent PLO, the Palestinian authority elected body can hardly do anything because of Israeli restrictions and they can even keep on the colonization process that is both immoral and illegal without anyone doing anything.

I agree with more and more with the columnists and editorialist from Al Haaretz (an Israeli Newspaper of all things) who say that the current policy of the Jewish state leads to a dead end. As you said, they are backed by the United States, they will survive, but I don't think they will thrive...

And the whole part on the lack of legitimacy of the Palestinian government is, quite frankly, Israel's own fault. The restrictions they impose on the parliamentary leaders of the Palestinian authority (even those of the Fatah) is one of the main problem.


I disagree. Palestine is responsible for it's own actions or its not a real government and we shouldn't care.

Israel is unique in a plethora of ways. Nonetheless that they are vital to the West.


You trump the argument here.

I am not asking for Israel to stop existing. I want it to change its policy and to be accountable, especially during the peace process. Heck, if the demographic shift occurs, and it will, the West will have allowed much more harm to Israel than if they actually reacted and used their leverage to get somewhere.

The Israelis are just as resilient, maybe even more so, as those around them.


You are talking about something that sounds more psychological and philosophical than factual. Yes, the Israeli people are strong. Yes, they will maintain a military and civic superiority over their allies for the forseeable future (and probably beyond). But what will happen in a few decades when the Jewish population of Israel will decline, just as the muslim population within Israel will surpass 30%? What will happen when the Palestinians outside of the Israeli territories will get more and more numerous? What will happen when the arabic nations will get richer?

The survival of Israel as of now depends on foreign support and on the stagnation of their rivals. But with an increasingly large Muslim population within the country and neighboring Muslim nations that are getting more powerful (A good example here is Turkey), it is vital for Israel to take a few steps, which would not only be wise but also ethical in the face of international law. I'm not asking them to throw down all they have, but to stop displacing populations, to end the colonizations of territories (and properties) which legally belong to others. If any other country on earth did the same, they would have to deal with sanctions.


By the way, I missed those arguments Shik! :lol:
If they can abolish fanaticism, let us pray for the advent of the sceptics.

Raymond Aron
The Opium of the Intellectuals
User avatar
Antiochus
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2573
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 5:29 pm
Location: Sherbrooke

Re: Middle East: Passion & Protest

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:18 pm

[quote="Antiochus"

Both sides have the nasty tendency to see their actions as an angry response to illegal acts and, to a degree, their both right. Sometimes, I can't help but to agree that the only difference between both sides is a government sanction and a ''US FRIENDLY'' stamp on the doorstep of the Knesset.[/quote]

I agree for the most part.

And thats part of the problem. Even when the Palestinians do nothing wrong, like during the last round of negotiations, Israel can sabotage the whole process without even getting a slap on the wrist. Heck, much of the Palestinian trouble is directly caused by Israeli intervention. The Hamas was funded by Israel to form an opposition to the then more violent PLO, the Palestinian authority elected body can hardly do anything because of Israeli restrictions and they can even keep on the colonization process that is both immoral and illegal without anyone doing anything.


Maybe, but Israel isn't compelled to peace. They are only compelled to their self-interests. If they can't control their own people/paramilitary groups, then they can't expect Israel to deal with them fairly. I recognize it is a circular and never-ending pattern, but I don't force Israel to take a inferior position just because they have the upperhand.


I agree with more and more with the columnists and editorialist from Al Haaretz (an Israeli Newspaper of all things) who say that the current policy of the Jewish state leads to a dead end. As you said, they are backed by the United States, they will survive, but I don't think they will thrive...


policy of peace-talks? I certainly agree its a dead end, or circular.


I am not asking for Israel to stop existing. I want it to change its policy and to be accountable, especially during the peace process. Heck, if the demographic shift occurs, and it will, the West will have allowed much more harm to Israel than if they actually reacted and used their leverage to get somewhere.


It is hard to be accountable, in the sense we want, when they are in situation quite foreign to what we're used to. And what about accountability from Palestine? I've never seen any.



You are talking about something that sounds more psychological and philosophical than factual. Yes, the Israeli people are strong. Yes, they will maintain a military and civic superiority over their allies for the forseeable future (and probably beyond). But what will happen in a few decades when the Jewish population of Israel will decline, just as the muslim population within Israel will surpass 30%? What will happen when the Palestinians outside of the Israeli territories will get more and more numerous? What will happen when the arabic nations will get richer?

The survival of Israel as of now depends on foreign support and on the stagnation of their rivals. But with an increasingly large Muslim population within the country and neighboring Muslim nations that are getting more powerful (A good example here is Turkey), it is vital for Israel to take a few steps, which would not only be wise but also ethical in the face of international law. I'm not asking them to throw down all they have, but to stop displacing populations, to end the colonizations of territories (and properties) which legally belong to others. If any other country on earth did the same, they would have to deal with sanctions.


By the way, I missed those arguments Shik! :lol:


Fair enough. I definitely agree they are highly dependent on foreign support.

:D I think we've done this dance before!
User avatar
Shikanosuke
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 4337
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:22 am
Location: US

Re: Middle East: Passion & Protest

Unread postby Antiochus » Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:56 pm

Shikanosuke wrote:Maybe, but Israel isn't compelled to peace. They are only compelled to their self-interests. If they can't control their own people/paramilitary groups, then they can't expect Israel to deal with them fairly.


And if Israel doesnt control their own people/colonists, then they can't expect Palestinians to deal with them fairly.

See... this arguments will never lead us anywhere until someone puts on their pants and makes a gesture. My bets should be on the democratic and rich nation over the hardly recognized authority that is constantly undermined... :lol:

I agree with more and more with the columnists and editorialist from Al Haaretz (an Israeli Newspaper of all things) who say that the current policy of the Jewish state leads to a dead end. As you said, they are backed by the United States, they will survive, but I don't think they will thrive...


policy of peace-talks? I certainly agree its a dead end, or circular.


If they weren't sabotaging their own peace-talks, I would agree to call it as such...


It is hard to be accountable, in the sense we want, when they are in situation quite foreign to what we're used to. And what about accountability from Palestine? I've never seen any.


Actually, they are held accountable in more ways than Israel is. They have to face military repression (sometimes through the use of illegal weaponry, mind you). Its weird to, on the one hand, expect the Palestinians to be at least as accountable as the Israelis when, on the other hand, they are denied any form of legitimacy and even the logistics to make their central authority work.

:D I think we've done this dance before!


Meh, I was younger and stupider then... :lol:

That and I hope my English got better...
If they can abolish fanaticism, let us pray for the advent of the sceptics.

Raymond Aron
The Opium of the Intellectuals
User avatar
Antiochus
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2573
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 5:29 pm
Location: Sherbrooke

PreviousNext

Return to Current Affairs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved