Libya: Civil War and Restoration

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Re: Libya: Civil War Looming?

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:10 pm

Barack Obama's response to the Libyan Crisis:

Transcript wrote: THE PRESIDENT: Good afternoon, everybody. Secretary Clinton and I just concluded a meeting that focused on the ongoing situation in Libya. Over the last few days, my national security team has been working around the clock to monitor the situation there and to coordinate with our international partners about a way forward.

First, we are doing everything we can to protect American citizens. That is my highest priority. In Libya, we've urged our people to leave the country and the State Department is assisting those in need of support. Meanwhile, I think all Americans should give thanks to the heroic work that's being done by our foreign service officers and the men and women serving in our embassies and consulates around the world. They represent the very best of our country and its values.

Now, throughout this period of unrest and upheaval across the region the United States has maintained a set of core principles which guide our approach. These principles apply to the situation in Libya. As I said last week, we strongly condemn the use of violence in Libya.

The American people extend our deepest condolences to the families and loved ones of all who’ve been killed and injured. The suffering and bloodshed is outrageous and it is unacceptable. So are threats and orders to shoot peaceful protesters and further punish the people of Libya. These actions violate international norms and every standard of common decency. This violence must stop.

The United States also strongly supports the universal rights of the Libyan people. That includes the rights of peaceful assembly, free speech, and the ability of the Libyan people to determine their own destiny. These are human rights. They are not negotiable. They must be respected in every country. And they cannot be denied through violence or suppression.

In a volatile situation like this one, it is imperative that the nations and peoples of the world speak with one voice, and that has been our focus. Yesterday a unanimous U.N. Security Council sent a clear message that it condemns the violence in Libya, supports accountability for the perpetrators, and stands with the Libyan people.

This same message, by the way, has been delivered by the European Union, the Arab League, the African Union, the Organization of the Islamic Conference, and many individual nations. North and south, east and west, voices are being raised together to oppose suppression and support the rights of the Libyan people.

I’ve also asked my administration to prepare the full range of options that we have to respond to this crisis. This includes those actions we may take and those we will coordinate with our allies and partners, or those that we’ll carry out through multilateral institutions.

Like all governments, the Libyan government has a responsibility to refrain from violence, to allow humanitarian assistance to reach those in need, and to respect the rights of its people. It must be held accountable for its failure to meet those responsibilities, and face the cost of continued violations of human rights.

This is not simply a concern of the United States. The entire world is watching, and we will coordinate our assistance and accountability measures with the international community. To that end, Secretary Clinton and I have asked Bill Burns, our Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs, to make several stops in Europe and the region to intensify our consultations with allies and partners about the situation in Libya.

I’ve also asked Secretary Clinton to travel to Geneva on Monday, where a number of foreign ministers will convene for a session of the Human Rights Council. There she’ll hold consultations with her counterparts on events throughout the region and continue to ensure that we join with the international community to speak with one voice to the government and the people of Libya.

And even as we are focused on the urgent situation in Libya, let me just say that our efforts continue to address the events taking place elsewhere, including how the international community can most effectively support the peaceful transition to democracy in both Tunisia and in Egypt.

So let me be clear. The change that is taking place across the region is being driven by the people of the region. This change doesn’t represent the work of the United States or any foreign power. It represents the aspirations of people who are seeking a better life.

As one Libyan said, “We just want to be able to live like human beings.” We just want to be able to live like human beings. It is the most basic of aspirations that is driving this change. And throughout this time of transition, the United States will continue to stand up for freedom, stand up for justice, and stand up for the dignity of all people.

Thank you very much.


Link to video (it can be downloaded):
Remarks by the President on Libya
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Re: Libya: Civil War Looming?

Unread postby TooMuchBaijiu » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:09 pm

I'm beginning to wonder whether some limited intervention by the U.S should be considered.

I don't mean invasion, or even putting one single soldier on the ground. Maybe we could declare Libya a no-fly zone, and shoot down any fighter that's clearly gunning for the people. Maybe we could bomb Gadhafi's military installations, or perhaps even the man himself. I think the Libyan people just might remember the favor, the same way America remembers what France and Lafayette did for us during the Revolution. Limited airstrikes worked for us in Kosovo, didn't it?

Of course, I think any military action on our part should be brought before the UN. I remember the last time we acted unilaterally, and it not going well.
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Re: Libya: Civil War Looming?

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:15 pm

It seems like they are trying to take the passive-aggressive method with him. They did the same thing to Mubarak before he stepped down.

They froze his assets...

I don't believe this is the same situation nor is the mindframe of the dictator the same. This guy killed over 2,000 of his own people (I believe this is the number I saw posted on CNN during my break) already and will continue to 'clean house' as he put it as long as possible.

I agree with you TMB, but I believe it should be a joint effort and not the U.S. only.
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Re: Libya: Civil War Looming?

Unread postby TooMuchBaijiu » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:42 pm

Zhuanyong wrote:I agree with you TMB, but I believe it should be a joint effort and not the U.S. only.


Absolutely. Kosovo was a joint effort as well. Well, it involved NATO, not the other two members of the Security Council, but China and Russia don't seem too keen on international peacekeeping these days. And it worked, with a minimum of casualties on the NATO side. (2, I believe, and they were killed in an accident, not by Serbian fire.)

The mistake I believe we're making in Iraq and Afghanistan is this idiotic presumption that they absolutely need us to build their democracies for them, and as a result we end up trying to recast their countries in our image, which in addition to being impossible is expensive as all get out, with all the foreign aid we've pumped into those countries to rebuild their infrastructure and prop up our puppet leaders. With Libya, I say we rain some "liberty" on Gaddafi and his ilk and let the Libyans figure out the rest. No occupation, no rebuilding, no puppets or Americanization. I'm a strong believer in the Democratic Peace Theory and that a free Libya will by nature be a steadfast ally of the U.S.
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Re: Libya: Civil War Looming?

Unread postby Lord Yang Jiahua » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:13 am

Zhuanyong wrote:I agree with you TMB, but I believe it should be a joint effort and not the U.S. only.

I thought NATO said they were not going to do anything???
I also highly doubt America will involve itself in Libya,the American people already have a lot to deal with on the home front.
What with Wisconsin and Ohio and all.
Also it is generally accepted that the Majority of Americans are against the wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan already, so if we were to send any troops to Libya, its going to enrage a lot of people!
If the UN wants to do something about it, get Italy or a neighboring Euro country to Libya to do something why should it be our problem when were a good half way round the world from the conflict.
Also i doubt the American Middle East presence is a deterent to anyone looking to capitalize from the chaos(iran). If Iran were to try something(sorry Israel) they might well go unopposed by anyone besides Israel, so i mean if Iran effectively keeps its people under control, they could try for regional domination.
Lastly, i guess the only general reason America would have any excuse to enter Libya, would be once again the oil. As much as The American Public is in denial(or will be In ) of this fact, we should just accept it as neccesary in order to prevent $5.00 gas prices, if the Situation really gets that uncontrollable, then so be it, because i do not see any affordable worthwhile technological inovations any time soon that will take us off dependence on foreign oil.(and don't give me the electric car green energy crap, we all know less than 5% of the U.S is green energy supplied, and the new electric cars are either too expensive or highly exaggerated.)
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Re: Libya: Civil War Looming?

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:59 pm

Lord Yang Jiahua wrote:I thought NATO said they were not going to do anything???


That has never truly stopped them from backtracking and doing the opposite in the past. When the pressure is on for taking action, it happens. Besides, we get a lot of face politics here on the civilian side. I expect either an intervention or procrastination while prices for gas and subsequentally many other valuables to continue to skyrocket. But I still see some form of action being taken.

Lord Yang Jiahua wrote:I also highly doubt America will involve itself in Libya,the American people already have a lot to deal with on the home front.
What with Wisconsin and Ohio and all.


When was the last time this country (U.S.) placed the needs of its people over its own agenda in politics amongst the world?

Lord Yang Jiahua wrote:Also it is generally accepted that the Majority of Americans are against the wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan already, so if we were to send any troops to Libya, its going to enrage a lot of people!


Yet the government continues to keep troops in those countries against 'the will' of the people. It shows who really has power and makes decisions -- and it's not the people (regardless of what we are told). I believe it is safe to say that an angry populace won't stop such an action if it were decided on.

Lord Yang Jiahua wrote:If the UN wants to do something about it, get Italy or a neighboring Euro country to Libya to do something why should it be our problem when were a good half way round the world from the conflict.


Feasible, yet would something like that really happen?
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Re: Libya: Civil War Looming?

Unread postby Lord Yang Jiahua » Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:11 pm

Zhuanyong wrote:When was the last time this country (U.S.) placed the needs of its people over its own agenda in politics amongst the world?

Yes it is wishful thinking to think the U.S government would do that, but they cannot keep ignoring the people for long, eventually the words of our President won't have any effect at calming the people......
Zhuanyong wrote:Feasible, yet would something like that really happen?

Once again wishful thinking,the Euro countries have their own problems especially Italy so they probably won't intervene.
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Re: Libya: Civil War Looming?

Unread postby James » Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:18 pm

Zhuanyong wrote:
Lord Yang Jiahua wrote:I also highly doubt America will involve itself in Libya,the American people already have a lot to deal with on the home front.
What with Wisconsin and Ohio and all.

When was the last time this country (U.S.) placed the needs of its people over its own agenda in politics amongst the world?

What an odd little exchange. :)

What's happening in Wisconsin and Ohio is of no great burden to the American populace weighed in against factors such as the economy and unemployment. Heck, collective bargaining rights such as these don't exist in a number of other states, and even if the public sector workers lost these rights (and any other benefits Walker has proposed eliminating) they will still be better off in every single way than private sector workers. It doesn't mean that Walker is right, but people need to keep this in mind when considering public sector workers.

As for the statement about whether the United States ever places the needs of its people over its political agenda among the world, that's deeply cynical. You could easily argue that, in many cases, its political agenda is spurred by the needs of its people. It isn't always the case (e.g. TSA) but it isn't one-sided.
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Re: Libya: Civil War Looming?

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:23 pm

James wrote:As for the statement about whether the United States ever places the needs of its people over its political agenda among the world, that's deeply cynical. You could easily argue that, in many cases, its political agenda is spurred by the needs of its people. It isn't always the case (e.g. TSA) but it isn't one-sided.


You're messing up my plans to become the epic cynic of SoSZ!

Ok, I'm really not aiming for that and you do make a good point there but I didn't state whether it did or didn't but rather when was the last time. I was implying that I don't believe it is common enough to be thrown in as something that can be expected from leadership.
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Re: Libya: Civil War Looming?

Unread postby Lord Yang Jiahua » Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:40 am

Zhuanyong wrote:You're messing up my plans to become the epic cynic of SoSZ!

Thats my job :!: no no im playing nobody likes a total cynic....
Errrrr................ Is Gadhafi leaving or what?? this guy is so damn stubborn that he's going to get dragged out and shot by his people, and i don't think the guy has the guts to accept that fate!
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