WikiLeaks: Revealing Open Secrets

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Re: WikiLeaks: Revealing Open Secrets

Unread postby Gray Riders » Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:20 pm

Ranbir wrote:If your reasoning for information to be withheld is based on potential fear scenarios like that, then you're completely misplaced by putting your argument against Assange.

You skip out the Insider Threat that acquired the data in the first place. Even if Assange wasn't alive and Wikileaks wasn't on the internet, that insider threat would still have the capability to release whatever the hell he acquired (like on torrent sites)

1: Potential fear scenario? The scenario I refer to has already happened. The Taliban said they would look into the names in the leaks. Whether it's led to any deaths yet or not I do not know. Doesn't change the fact it could.
2: Nowhere did I say Assange is the only one. If he decided not to release the leaks because of security concerns, he'd have no hand in any damage it causes. If it still gets out, it's not his fault. But he did, so it is. Doesn't mean someone else isn't even more at fault.
Let's go back to the stolen car analogy. If someone refuses to sell a car he knows is stolen, the thief can take it somewhere else. The car will still be sold, but the first dealer is no longer responsible.
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Re: WikiLeaks: Revealing Open Secrets

Unread postby Ranbir » Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:07 pm

You've fallen victim to the narrative; There have been no names released.


If we're dealing with a government and its activities kept secret from you, then it is less a car being stolen and more a car you have the right to drive.
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Re: WikiLeaks: Revealing Open Secrets

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:11 pm

Depends what the secret activities are. If it's diplomacy or security matters and is not breaking the laws (or spirits of the laws), then I don't see the point of making things unnessicarly awkward for them, or revealing private conversations. Seen nothing on wikileaks that I felt the government should be telling us, though I may have missed something, so why make things more difficult for the government?
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Re: WikiLeaks: Revealing Open Secrets

Unread postby James » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:31 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Feel slightly sorry for Assange in having his court case tried by public media as well as the law, wish the media had reported the facts then left the matter alone while the system of the UK then possibly Sweden did it's duty.

In all fairness, every single high-profile case is tried publicly by the media.
Why should Assange enjoy an exception to this social perversion?

Ranbir wrote:You skip out the Insider Threat that acquired the data in the first place. Even if Assange wasn't alive and Wikileaks wasn't on the internet, that insider threat would still have the capability to release whatever the hell he acquired (like on torrent sites)

Not the same thing at all. For good reasons and for bad, Wikileaks prompts the delivery of information which would not have been delivered or published otherwise.

Ranbir wrote:You've fallen victim to the narrative; There have been no names released.

If we're dealing with a government and its activities kept secret from you, then it is less a car being stolen and more a car you have the right to drive.

First off, the cables contain highly descriptive passages which could be used to identify individuals. I came across a few that were troubling while skimming through myself, but more importantly, NPR had a segment on just this topic which demonstrated this problem with remarkable clarity.

Second, governments need to keep secrets in order to survive. Some secrets are appropriate and others are not. Corruption is not acceptable (but will realistically happen in any human organization). But secrecy is a fundamental element of politics and warfare.
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Re: WikiLeaks: Revealing Open Secrets

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:26 pm

James wrote:In all fairness, every single high-profile case is tried publicly by the media.
Why should Assange enjoy an exception to this social perversion?


Why should Assange, or anyone, suffer this social perversion at all? No need for it to happen to Assange, or anybody else, just because of media's old habits.
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Re: WikiLeaks: Revealing Open Secrets

Unread postby James » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:40 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Why should Assange, or anyone, suffer this social perversion at all? No need for it to happen to Assange, or anybody else, just because of media's old habits.

I agree, of course. I'm just a little surprised that this is the circumstance under which some more people seem to be taking a stand. Much more noble folk have been subjected to this trial by media with just a fraction of this fuss—even after the smoke has cleared on those occasions when we can see how disgusting the media's representation and reporting has actually been.
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Re: WikiLeaks: Revealing Open Secrets

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:50 pm

Actually, I was more thinking of a murder case over here but saw this topic I realized it was relevant here so mentioned it. I wasn't aware media representation was causing a fuss, more anonymity (or lack of) for rape victims and their accusers, Sweden's justice system and how much USA was behind it or not.
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Re: WikiLeaks: Revealing Open Secrets

Unread postby James » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:56 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Actually, I was more thinking of a murder case over here but saw this topic I realized it was relevant here so mentioned it. I wasn't aware media representation was causing a fuss, more anonymity (or lack of) for rape victims and their accusers, Sweden's justice system and how much USA was behind it or not.

I'm not sure I understand your final sentence.
I should also note that I have no knowledge of Sweden's trends in this regard.
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Re: WikiLeaks: Revealing Open Secrets

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:07 pm

James wrote:I'm not sure I understand your final sentence.
I should also note that I have no knowledge of Sweden's trends in this regard.


The USA part or the whole thing? If USA, there is or was a lot of conjecture on how much pressure the US was putting on Sweden to reopen the rape case and so on. If the whole thing, merely reflecting my personal experience saw subjects other then media coverage being discussed.

I have no idea on Sweden's history on such matters either.
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Re: WikiLeaks: Revealing Open Secrets

Unread postby James » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:14 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:The USA part or the whole thing? If USA, there is or was a lot of conjecture on how much pressure the US was putting on Sweden to reopen the rape case and so on. If the whole thing, merely reflecting my personal experience saw subjects other then media coverage being discussed.

Ah. I'm not sure what to make of this as any conclusion we come to would be based on speculation and bias (one way or another). It seems possible that the US may have encouraged them to open this case—US political leaders have certainly taken initiatives against Assange in other ways—but there are so many other elements at play, here.
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