WikiLeaks: Revealing Open Secrets

Discuss events that have an impact on you and the world today. A home for honest, serious, and open discussion.

Re: WikiLeaks: Revealing Open Secrets

Unread postby James » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:44 pm

Zhuanyong wrote:I'm not sure if parents lying to children about magical non-existent people will disable their imaginations. I believe as a child I had every bit of a huge imagination and I didn't have such things fed on me.

It certainly won't/wouldn't, but a general attitude which is opposed to creative dreaming certainly does help. More to the point, it is through the explanation of our limits (often-times very sad limits) that we lose this creativity. Santa is not directly relevant to this, but a general attitude that all things not firmly grounded in reality should be dismissed/dissuaded is (not to say that anyone in this conversation is that sort).

Zhuanyong wrote:Besides, a lie is a lie my friend. In fact, I believe when parents do it it reinforces the fact that it is alright - cycle continues. How can you tell your child that lying is wrong if you do it to them and around them? Honestly, you can't. And of course, children learn quite a bit more harsh lessons and bad habits from other children or even t.v. but parents are the reinforcers of good and bad habits not outside factors (under normal circumstances and situations).

I don't really agree with this as it relates to the myth of Santa (though your statement is quite accurate aside from this). When evaluating a lie one would also need to consider the elements of social acceptance, the end result of that lie, the emotional response to that lie, gains and losses derived from that lie, and any other number of things I'm probably forgetting. In light of these things, this lie is quite unlike one which, say, deceives for personal gain or out of malice.

Additionally, if we are to accept that a few lies of this sort (be it Santa, the Tooth Fairy, or the Easter Bunny) will lend any appreciable degree to the corruption of our child, why don't we just throw our arms up in surrender anyway? A parent will inevitably screw up in breaking a far more important promise, and the child will be inundated with lies from all around as they grow up, and those will often-times come from trusted sources (be it a friend, lover, or whoever). Human beings are far more resilient than this.

And what of other factors? I would have resented more the lack of imaginative holidays in my home than I ever could have these lies they exposed me to, and until now I don't think I've met any others who feel the same way.

And this is definitely off topic, but interesting.
Would make for an unusual topic...
Kongming’s Archives – Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel, History and Games
“ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
  — Ben Franklin
User avatar
James
Sausaged Fish
Sausaged Fish
 
Posts: 17949
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:21 pm
Location: Happy Valley, UT

Re: WikiLeaks: Revealing Open Secrets

Unread postby Ranbir » Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:00 pm

but a general attitude that all things not firmly grounded in reality should be dismissed/dissuaded is (not to say that anyone in this conversation is that sort).


I remember Dawkins was eager to write a book to tell children that fairytale and such is a lie and that they're stupid for not applying 'rational' thinking.

I can see playtime being something special.
"The imaginary number is a fine and wonderful resource of the human spirit, almost an amphibian between being and not being." - Gottfried Leibniz
Science snobbery.
User avatar
Ranbir
For Queen and Country
 
Posts: 8489
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:27 am
Location: Your heart. <3

Re: WikiLeaks: Revealing Open Secrets

Unread postby SunXia » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:14 am

Christmas is a time for imagination and make believe for kids!! I mean, you wouldn't walk up to a child whose playing with a toy aeroplane and badger him with stuff like "Planes don't make that nice and they don't fly like that or they'd crash!!" It will be the saddest day ever if children stop writing notes to Santa Claus completely, children suffer in a world of enlightenment and cynical attitudes, makes me sick!! I always stress to those that are coming out of the "Santa's not real" phase, that well, he's based on St Nicholas and they should be grateful rather than accusing in such a brattish way!! If my kids were like that they wouldn't be getting anything the next year because there are kids in the world that get nothing and I think those with cynical views about being lied to about Santa yet still take the presents should think of them a little bit more!!
If becoming enlightened or an intellectual means I must become arrogant and coldly cynical about the world around me then I'd gladly remain a fool for the rest of my life!!

I'm Out4Marriage!!!Are You??

It is a CHOICE!!
User avatar
SunXia
Warrior Princess
Warrior Princess
 
Posts: 6539
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:48 pm
Location: Keeping Evils from this world at bay...with a smile!!

Re: WikiLeaks: Revealing Open Secrets

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:28 pm

James wrote:And this is definitely off topic, but interesting.
Would make for an unusual topic...


I would call it more of a sidebar conversation based on a post that was relevant to the topic :) . But I certainly was hoping that the discussion didn't stray from the topic regarding Wikileaks, especially based on a post made by myself.

I do however respect each of your opinions regarding what we were just talking about however.

On topic -- I found a recent article on Assange Trial By Newspaper
Avatar: N/A

[No comment]
User avatar
Zhuanyong
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 5355
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:58 pm
Location: If I told you, would it really matter?

Re: WikiLeaks: Revealing Open Secrets

Unread postby Gray Riders » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:37 pm

Zhuanyong wrote:On topic -- I found a recent article on Assange Trial By Newspaper

Agree that if they're going to post some of the leak about the trial, they should post the whole thing.

Disagree about the assertion that there's a world of difference between releasing it and what wikileaks does--it's the exact same thing, really. Posting documents you're not supposed to have for the purpose of making people look bad. The main difference is in scale.

Maybe I'm harsh but I feel that if you're going to make a habit out of revealing secrets, you really have no right to complain when the same happens to you.
Gray Riders
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1891
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:02 am

Re: WikiLeaks: Revealing Open Secrets

Unread postby SunXia » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:45 pm

I am in complete agreement there Gray Riders regarding revealing secrets about others just to make them look like Tools but to complain when it is done onto you!!

Personally I dislike the man!!
If becoming enlightened or an intellectual means I must become arrogant and coldly cynical about the world around me then I'd gladly remain a fool for the rest of my life!!

I'm Out4Marriage!!!Are You??

It is a CHOICE!!
User avatar
SunXia
Warrior Princess
Warrior Princess
 
Posts: 6539
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:48 pm
Location: Keeping Evils from this world at bay...with a smile!!

Re: WikiLeaks: Revealing Open Secrets

Unread postby Ranbir » Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:10 pm

One is to hold elected governments, acting in YOUR supposed interest, to account. Another is to weave a specific narrative to make the most money. There is a -clear- difference.

What is most enjoyable is the Guardian just demonstrated exactly what the problem is with the media.
"The imaginary number is a fine and wonderful resource of the human spirit, almost an amphibian between being and not being." - Gottfried Leibniz
Science snobbery.
User avatar
Ranbir
For Queen and Country
 
Posts: 8489
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:27 am
Location: Your heart. <3

Re: WikiLeaks: Revealing Open Secrets

Unread postby Gray Riders » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:47 pm

Ranbir wrote:One is to hold elected governments, acting in YOUR supposed interest, to account. Another is to weave a specific narrative to make the most money. There is a -clear- difference.

What is most enjoyable is the Guardian just demonstrated exactly what the problem is with the media.

I suppose the thing is that I think that either Assange doesn't really care about anything but having a laugh at the shockwaves this is causing, or he's playing cavalier with other people's lives. He claims that he's trying to bring justice to innocents, but publishing names that the Taliban can get hold of certainly doesn't support that claim.
So I see it as pretty much the same thing on separate scales. Assange strikes me as myopic and highly immoral. If he wasn't reporting on a war that's still in progress and releasing informant's names, I wouldn't mind. He'd even strike me as well meaning instead.

I'm not letting off the newspapers and other sources that released the leaks, before anyone brings that up. They're just as bad, aside from attempts from several to redact names.
Gray Riders
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1891
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:02 am

Re: WikiLeaks: Revealing Open Secrets

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:14 pm

Ranbir wrote:One is to hold elected governments, acting in YOUR supposed interest, to account.


I will be happy for the day when an organisation exists that actually does that. The ones we have, conventional ones like the papers and unconventional ones, seem driven by their own agenda's and not always acting with fairness or appropriate discretion.

Feel slightly sorry for Assange in having his court case tried by public media as well as the law, wish the media had reported the facts then left the matter alone while the system of the UK then possibly Sweden did it's duty.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 15053
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: WikiLeaks: Revealing Open Secrets

Unread postby Ranbir » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:44 pm

If your reasoning for information to be withheld is based on potential fear scenarios like that, then you're completely misplaced by putting your argument against Assange.

You skip out the Insider Threat that acquired the data in the first place. Even if Assange wasn't alive and Wikileaks wasn't on the internet, that insider threat would still have the capability to release whatever the hell he acquired (like on torrent sites)
"The imaginary number is a fine and wonderful resource of the human spirit, almost an amphibian between being and not being." - Gottfried Leibniz
Science snobbery.
User avatar
Ranbir
For Queen and Country
 
Posts: 8489
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:27 am
Location: Your heart. <3

PreviousNext

Return to Current Affairs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved