The Cordoba House ('Ground-Zero Mosque')

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The Cordoba House ('Ground-Zero Mosque')

Unread postby James » Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:43 pm

For discussion about the Cordoba House, a 13-story community center/mosque proposed near the 9/11 fallout area, political/social implications and complaints, and other associated interests.

Cordoba House (the project)
Feisal Abdul Rauf (imam behind the project)

Building currently occupying construction space.
Location relative to 9/11 attack damaged buildings/ground zero.
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Re: Cordoba House "Ground Zero Mosque"

Unread postby James » Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:46 pm

So this has been a big political issue since it was first announced. Initially it was a heated matter among New York residents but became bigger when Mayor Bloomberg came out in support of it. It has since blown up into a national/international discussion with Obama's support (worded in such a way that it has ruffled plenty of features) and vocal opposition from the usual suspects (e.g. Palin and a variety on the Right-wing spectrum of politics).

I enjoyed a short chat with WWD about it a few days ago, but I was curious to see what forum members think.
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Re: Cordoba House "Ground Zero Mosque"

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:38 pm

James wrote:So this has been a big political issue since it was first announced. Initially it was a heated matter among New York residents but became bigger when Mayor Bloomberg came out in support of it. It has since blown up into a national/international discussion with Obama's support (worded in such a way that it has ruffled plenty of features) and vocal opposition from the usual suspects (e.g. Palin and a variety on the Right-wing spectrum of politics).

I enjoyed a short chat with WWD about it a few days ago, but I was curious to see what forum members think.


Good idea. Here is the original blog post I wrote about the issue - basically my position was that the building ought not to be a significant political issue at all, since its opponents don't really have any valid legal grounds for having it removed. James pointed out - and I agree with him completely - that the location of the Córdoba House hit a sensitive spot in the minds of many New Yorkers. I actually don't think we differed that much in the opinion that such concerns shouldn't affect the just application of our legal principles, but I think (correct me if I'm wrong on this, James) he simply wished to point out that expression of such concerns was completely understandable.

The Burlington Coat factory that previously occupied that space where the Córdoba House is going was damaged in 9/11. From what I understand of the project itself, the motivation was that this Muslim community wanted to help with rebuilding the neighbourhood and provide some residential accommodations for the residents (in addition to providing a space for interfaith dialogue). The current meme among its more vocal opponents is that they are building it to fulfil a hidden agenda and as a symbol of victory and domination over the US, though I have yet to see this view substantiated.
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Re: Cordoba House "Ground Zero Mosque"

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:57 pm

I feel that if, say for instance, an anti-abortion group bombed a abortion clinic..no one would care much when they wanted to put another church around the block. Perhaps that is not most exact analogy, but I feel as if you entertain such an argument it basically boils down to the assumption that Islam itself attacked America.
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Re: Cordoba House "Ground Zero Mosque"

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:16 am

From what I understand it's not even visible from Ground Zero? And there are other mosques about the same distance close by too?


Also isn't it going to be more or less a moderate mosque/community? Surely it's a great statement to show that America embraces and welcomes all reasonable religious groups and it will weaken the primary argument from islamic extremists, that the west is hostile to Islam itself rather than the fringe elements.
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Re: Cordoba House "Ground Zero Mosque"

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:25 pm

Crazedmongoose wrote:From what I understand it's not even visible from Ground Zero? And there are other mosques about the same distance close by too?


I believe I read in the Times that there is a mosque only a few streets away

I loved the Mayor's Speech by the way. As for the issue itself, I don't see why the mosque/community centre shouldn't be built if it doesn't fail any planning laws. A mosque for moderate Muslims would, if it has to symbolise anything (which it really shouldn't be needing to), be New York and America welcoming those of any religion and their right to worship.
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Re: Cordoba House "Ground Zero Mosque"

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:26 pm

It's a strike against those enemies of America who try to claim that America is in actuality intolerant of others. Even from a PR point of view it makes sense.
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Re: Cordoba House "Ground Zero Mosque"

Unread postby James » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:53 pm

Keith Olbermann Special Comment: There Is No 'Ground Zero Mosque'


Normally I wouldn't bother to reproduce something from Keith Olbermann, as he absolutely does have a political agenda and it shows through his presentation and coverage, but he covered many details in this video which everyone who has formed a strong opinion on this matter should know.

The parts worthy of contention or clarification are hardly worth mentioning.
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Re: Cordoba House "Ground Zero Mosque"

Unread postby James » Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:13 pm

Surprised there was no real fallout on this issue. Pleasantly so, I suppose. :)

It sounds like it is a very heated issue. I've only heard a handful of complaints from people I know.

WeiWenDi wrote:James pointed out - and I agree with him completely - that the location of the Córdoba House hit a sensitive spot in the minds of many New Yorkers. I actually don't think we differed that much in the opinion that such concerns shouldn't affect the just application of our legal principles, but I think (correct me if I'm wrong on this, James) he simply wished to point out that expression of such concerns was completely understandable.

Yeah, that's essentially it.

But freedom of religion alone trumps these things. It must be preserved.
And even beyond that there are so many reasons why this project should not be challenged.

WeiWenDi wrote:The Burlington Coat factory that previously occupied that space where the Córdoba House is going was damaged in 9/11. From what I understand of the project itself, the motivation was that this Muslim community wanted to help with rebuilding the neighbourhood and provide some residential accommodations for the residents (in addition to providing a space for interfaith dialogue). The current meme among its more vocal opponents is that they are building it to fulfil a hidden agenda and as a symbol of victory and domination over the US, though I have yet to see this view substantiated.

I imagine, at heart, the biggest desire for this building is to provide New York Muslims with a great resource, especially given how inadequate their current facilities in the area are. But the inclusion of the community center, on the other hand, demonstrates an interest beyond this. I guess a person could interpret it in the extreme negative, but that's fairly hard to do after a little research. I think it's just paranoia and misinformation at play here. The only negative element I can understand and relate to some extent over is what so many New Yorkers have actually been through—but again, not even remotely close to reason enough to challenge core American fundamentals.

I hear a lot of attacks on the Q'ran as well. Such as their having been called out to renounce the Q'ran to open the building (by resident groups). Hogwash. Now, anyone who has read the Q'ran knows that it is filled with many archaic elements and some downright evil punishments and systems—those horrible social and legal structures we read about in the Middle East are rooted in the Q'ran (sorry to any offended folks)—but you see the same sort of thing through the Old Testament. Shall we call upon a Catholic church to renounce their holy book to open a cathedral? Similarly, shall we judge all Christians by the rules and structures of the Old Testament as some are so content to do with the worst elements of the Q'ran? Unfortunately, most religions which date back to this period of history have unsavory roots. Even younger ones, like the LDS/Mormons.

Shikanosuke wrote:I feel that if, say for instance, an anti-abortion group bombed a abortion clinic..no one would care much when they wanted to put another church around the block. Perhaps that is not most exact analogy, but I feel as if you entertain such an argument it basically boils down to the assumption that Islam itself attacked America.

Don't care for the analogy, but I think you're spot on with the last conclusion.

Crazedmongoose wrote:From what I understand it's not even visible from Ground Zero? And there are other mosques about the same distance close by too?

It isn't visible from Ground Zero, but there is a very important qualification to make about Ground Zero. Ground Zero is the base site where the towers fell but the destruction radius is a fair bit larger. In this case, however, this building wouldn't even be visible from that entire radius (though perhaps from a height). It is part of the 9/11 fallout, though. It was a Burlington Coat Factory, and landing site for a landing gear. There are other mosques, but, someone correct me if I'm wrong, nothing substantial. There are other prominent religious buildings in closer proximity.

Crazedmongoose wrote:Also isn't it going to be more or less a moderate mosque/community? Surely it's a great statement to show that America embraces and welcomes all reasonable religious groups and it will weaken the primary argument from islamic extremists, that the west is hostile to Islam itself rather than the fringe elements.

That's the stated goal. Also, if it were to be extremist in some regard, why invite in so much of the public? Much of the building is to be devoted to community interaction and I've heard nothing about that community center being specific to Muslims. There is a significant prayer area for Muslims (top two floors, IIRC), but of course there's nothing wrong with that. Thinking that is so, in my view, is in accord with associating all Muslims with the likes of al-Qaeda.
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Re: Cordoba House "Ground Zero Mosque"

Unread postby dajiangjun » Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:56 am

I personally feel the Mosque isn't that big of a deal, and really couldn't care less, but at the same time my innermost values are conflicted with it. Why? Not because I hate Muslims, think all Muslims should be restricted by what a few radicals did in the name of their religion, or because of any religious feelings I harbor. The main reason I am against the Mosque is because I am against multiculturalism and the radical changes across the Western world which is leading to, or perhaps as already instituted, the death of traditional Western culture. I feel as though the West (the old Western Civilization, not this new culture masquerading as the West today) should not diffuse (or force) its culture on other people and I feel as though other cultures should not invade and change the face of the West forever, though it is probably already too late. I personally find the diversity of the world to be beautiful, and I would not want to see it drastically altered to turn into this multicultural melting pot that America has become, specifically I believe Europe should remain racially homogeneous(in other words a Europe for Europeans), restrict immigration, and attempt to reclaim it's ancient culture rather than to continue sliding slowly into what America is today, which I find to be the anti-thesis of a strong, cultured civilization.
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