The Political Compass

Discuss events that have an impact on you and the world today. A home for honest, serious, and open discussion.

Re: The Political Compass

Unread postby SunXia » Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:45 pm

Okay, I'll admit, my first reaction was: working with Sinn Fein? Seriously? Blair? So much for not compromising with terrorists...
That's a pretty touchy issue and at the end of the day, the troubles did good for us Catholics here, we wouldn't have had jobs had things that happened hadn't happened but there is a time to stop fighting for rights and a time to realise we are now equals and to move forward!!
If becoming enlightened or an intellectual means I must become arrogant and coldly cynical about the world around me then I'd gladly remain a fool for the rest of my life!!

I'm Out4Marriage!!!Are You??

It is a CHOICE!!
User avatar
SunXia
Warrior Princess
Warrior Princess
 
Posts: 6531
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:48 pm
Location: Keeping Evils from this world at bay...with a smile!!

Re: The Political Compass

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:35 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Dear lord, brings peace to a country and you use it to insult him for jimmies sake but to be fair, you clearly aren't a fan of a significant section of his reforms so I should take that into account. For me his reforms have left us better off as a country and I am grateful for aspects of his government that has made my life easier though I recognise there is much for Cameron's Coalition to do. Sure, I dislike what Blair did in regards Iraq but I'm not going to rubbish everything else he did abroad and at home for it, I don't think it would be a healthy attitude for our country to take either


You will note that I did not rubbish everything else he did. I can accept Kossovo - reluctantly - as a necessity; the same way I would accept an intervention in Sudan or Libya as a necessity if we had the capacity or will to do it properly (that is, with a UN-backed coalition). I can even appreciate Blair's role in ending the Troubles, though I will and do give him crap for the hypocrisy of making compromises with recognised, active violent non-state actors in one instance while categorically condemning the same course of action in another.

Dong Zhou wrote:Not a surprise really, Blair knows his audience and knows how well those kind of statements go down, most of it seemed to be a defence of his time and meaningless platitudes. I don't recall the press having a go at him over the speech at the time.


Perhaps I'm overreacting to it at that. But, as a Christian and as a student of history, I feel that in the long run, to paraphrase Reinhold Niebuhr, social orders will to the end of history destroy themselves in the endeavour to prove themselves indestructible. Exceptionalism and the rhetoric of grand destiny do not help matters at all.
Some more blood, Chekov. The needle won't hurt, Chekov. Take off your shirt, Chekov. Roll over, Chekov. Breathe deeply, Chekov. Blood sample, Chekov! Marrow sample, Chekov! Skin sample, Chekov! If I live long enough... I'm going to run out of samples.
User avatar
WeiWenDi
Hedgehog Emperor
 
Posts: 3823
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:09 am
Location: L'Étoile du Nord

Re: The Political Compass

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:05 am

The ones where you give him credit seem to come with a large dose of "but", do you do that for everyone? Highly applaudable if you do but does make it seem like your doing it through gritted teeth. Personally, I wouldn't have minded Iraq so much if the goal was clearly to kick out Saddam and install a democracy but still would have been a very foolish thing to do, particularly as we were engaged in another war already and there were far easier targets where we could have done likewise.

Going "New Labour will fall" would have not helped, particularly as everyone was aware he and Brown had not always got on. The man was bowing out from the stage, I don't mind if anyone goes for a positive speech to go out on.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 14691
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: The Political Compass

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:26 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:The ones where you give him credit seem to come with a large dose of "but", do you do that for everyone? Highly applaudable if you do but does make it seem like your doing it through gritted teeth.


I speak as I find. I'm not Irish and I'm not Iraqi, so I don't have the perspective of either to influence my view of Blair. But I try to base my conclusions on fact, and the fact remains that the primary decision that marked Blair's ministry was morally wrong, and it was based on a large body of lies. That is indisputably the bottom line against which all other considerations must be judged.

Just for the record, I'm not that great a fan of Obama, either - even though I found enough in common with the man to vote for him. I recognise what an accomplishment the health care bill was, and I am reaping the direct benefits as we speak (I am insured and, as a poorly-compensated graduate student at a research university, would not be otherwise), but at the same time it also comes with vast heaps of 'but' - like the fact that it entrenches the for-profit health insurance industry in ways which will again have to be addressed in the future.
Some more blood, Chekov. The needle won't hurt, Chekov. Take off your shirt, Chekov. Roll over, Chekov. Breathe deeply, Chekov. Blood sample, Chekov! Marrow sample, Chekov! Skin sample, Chekov! If I live long enough... I'm going to run out of samples.
User avatar
WeiWenDi
Hedgehog Emperor
 
Posts: 3823
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:09 am
Location: L'Étoile du Nord

Re: The Political Compass

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:41 pm

I'm less sure war with Iraq itself was morally wrong but the way we went into it was and rightly it will haunt Blair. None the less, he was leader of the country for a long time and I fail to see why his many many good things should be dismissed by one war. There is plenty within his reforms to take issue with or things he did (or didn't do) and that must be held against his achievements when judging him but, overall, I do think England has benefited from his time in charge.

I wouldn't say what he has done has affected me in a "easy to point to way" in the way it does for Sun Xia. If I get married to a man then my verdict would be changed (though probably "didn't take it far enough") but can point to general stuff I guess. General stuff but still enough to be grateful for so I'll admit to some bias.

Watched a film about Blair today strangely enough.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 14691
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: The Political Compass

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:03 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:I'm less sure war with Iraq itself was morally wrong but the way we went into it was and rightly it will haunt Blair. None the less, he was leader of the country for a long time and I fail to see why his many many good things should be dismissed by one war.


The two cannot be separated. For one thing, we do have criteria for judging whether or not war with Iraq itself was morally wrong. You will note that we did not have just cause (as the casus belli was based on lies - namely that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction that posed a clear and present threat), and thus did not have either justice or right intention on our side. With regard to the way the war was carried out, the human rights abuses at abu Ghraib, the Haditha and Mukaradeeb massacres, the rape and murder of the 14-year-old girl and her family in Mahmudiyah, and all of the well-orchestrated associated coverups kind of eliminate any pretensions our forces might have had to jus in bello, also.

To my mind, the Iraq War not only killed over half a million people and disrupted the lives of millions more, it also set a terrible precedent for future wars and diminished the moral standing of the United States and Great Britain in the eyes of the world. In my mind, the blemishes to the reputations of its prime movers, Bush first and Blair second, do not even approach being proportional. If justice were our primary concern, both men should be in gaol (though that's never going to happen).

Also, was this the film with Ioan Gruffudd? How was it?
Some more blood, Chekov. The needle won't hurt, Chekov. Take off your shirt, Chekov. Roll over, Chekov. Breathe deeply, Chekov. Blood sample, Chekov! Marrow sample, Chekov! Skin sample, Chekov! If I live long enough... I'm going to run out of samples.
User avatar
WeiWenDi
Hedgehog Emperor
 
Posts: 3823
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:09 am
Location: L'Étoile du Nord

Re: The Political Compass

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:40 pm

So rejection of clause 28 should be dismissed due to a war that had nothing to do with it? How are to learn from lessons if we must go "well freedom of information was an important move... oh wait, no doesn't count. He went to war with Iraq." or analysing how he made Labour electable again three times is rejected becuase of Iraq. We will learn nothing from his time, good or bad, if we just focus on one issue. Sure, a major issue but just one? So yes, I can separate a lot of what he did from Iraq. Foreign policy as a whole, particularly after Iraq, foreign reputation, domestic reputation, terror laws, relations within party after Iraq and so on, are going to have to be linked. Several domestic issues and even some foreign ones can be separated.

Had Blair gone with "Saddam=tyrant, we wish to install democracy" and so on, he would have had a case though not a particular strong one. As I said, the way he went into it was morally wrong and yes, failure to restrain the USA, oppose them on certain issues and some things our own army did have badly harmed England's cause and we are seeing as such in Libya. A lot of far worse men then Blair have not been arrested and it seems there has been nothing that even his political enemies (Tories, Old Labour, anti Iraq people) have been able to bring up that demands an arrest inside England or, it would seem, outside though of course the Chilcot inquiry could be delaying such moves. On the whole, would start with the worst men and then see if the court of human rights is interested in Blair,

Nope, one with Sheen in called "the Deal" and quite good thanks.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 14691
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: The Political Compass

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:53 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Foreign policy as a whole, particularly after Iraq, foreign reputation, domestic reputation, terror laws, relations within party after Iraq and so on, are going to have to be linked. Several domestic issues and even some foreign ones can be separated.


Okay, that's a my bad. What I meant by 'the two cannot be separated', as should have been obvious from the context of my citation of Just War theory, was that separating the hypothetical justice of the war in Iraq from the justice of the way it was carried out in practice is neither useful nor appropriate (those who say that 'I might have been in favour of the Iraq War if we'd have done it differently' are basically trying to have their cake and eat it too, or are trying to cover their arses from charges of hypocrisy given earlier support of the Iraq War). Naturally not everything Blair did was related to the war in Iraq, but my point is that our judgment should be on questions of what actually happened and why, rather than on hypothetical scenarios which did not happen. As it was, the casus belli as presented to the UN and to the American people (at any rate) was that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction which he was prepared to use against us.

Dong Zhou wrote:We will learn nothing from his time, good or bad, if we just focus on one issue.


We will learn nothing from any time in history, full stop, if we cannot put affairs in their proper perspective and recognise that some moral questions are of more pressing importance than others - and attempting to convince me that Iraq was not the definitive moral question of the past decade would be quite the quixotic endeavour.
Some more blood, Chekov. The needle won't hurt, Chekov. Take off your shirt, Chekov. Roll over, Chekov. Breathe deeply, Chekov. Blood sample, Chekov! Marrow sample, Chekov! Skin sample, Chekov! If I live long enough... I'm going to run out of samples.
User avatar
WeiWenDi
Hedgehog Emperor
 
Posts: 3823
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:09 am
Location: L'Étoile du Nord

Re: The Political Compass

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:10 am

Ah, my bad. I agree with that. It was the main reason Blair pushed at England/Parliament, leading to the famous 45 claim (and constant mocking by the bbc involving the phrase), David Kelly's death, the Hutton inquiry and an understandably pissed off BBC.

Iraq will probably be Blair's Sudan or Chamberlain's appeasement, the thing everyone remembers though that does feel unfair on those involved. Blair may have got a lot of moral questions right but he got that one very very wrong.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 14691
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: The Political Compass

Unread postby Kayzr » Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:51 pm

Here is where I stand:

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -1.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.95


Image
Kayzr
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1126
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:27 pm
Location: Rome.

PreviousNext

Return to Current Affairs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved