Barack Obama

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Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby James » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:23 pm

Shikanosuke wrote:I'll be honest and say I don't see how the two parts aren't unrelated nor how a peice of legislation is crafted is irrelevant to what it means. I'm not saying I will dwell on it, but much like legislation which burdens a racial minority I think theres no harm in noting who and why it was passed.

If legislation is good it should be maintained regardless of how it was crafted. If legislation is bad, it should be revoked even if it was created under good circumstances. Emotion has no place in this sort of decision as it will only ever cause problems. If legislation is inappropriately damaging to some portion of society, without just cause, it is bad legislation and needs to be done away with.

And if you're suggesting the Patriot Act is inappropriate because it has resulted in profiling of Muslims you need to wake up. The Native Americans, African Americans, Hispanics, Jews, French, Germans, et all; they're not the ones trying to blow up buildings, airplanes, and people; they're not the ones crying out for deaths to atone for a comic. If the good Muslims out there don't want to be profiled they need to stand up against the bad Muslims, and that's something they don't do with any respectable frequency. Anyway, that's a discussion for another topic.
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Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:34 pm

James wrote:If legislation is good it should be maintained regardless of how it was crafted. If legislation is bad, it should be revoked even if it was created under good circumstances. Emotion has no place in this sort of decision as it will only ever cause problems. If legislation is inappropriately damaging to some portion of society, without just cause, it is bad legislation and needs to be done away with.


What decision? We were discussing it, especially in relation to how Obama's camp is now handling things. My statement merely stated that, at the time, I might have been more supportive of the proposed legislation (and I did state only portions) had it not been being conducted so poorly. Hell, a good many people at the time would have (or would not have) supported the legislation had they known what was actually occuring.


And if you're suggesting the Patriot Act is inappropriate because it has resulted in profiling of Muslims you need to wake up. The Native Americans, African Americans, Hispanics, Jews, French, Germans, et all; they're not the ones trying to blow up buildings, airplanes, and people; they're not the ones crying out for deaths to atone for a comic. If the good Muslims out there don't want to be profiled they need to stand up against the bad Muslims, and that's something they don't do with any respectable frequency. Anyway, that's a discussion for another topic.


Quite so, since that was not in anyway what I was suggesting. I was refering to other bigoted legislation passed in our nation's history, particularly after the end of slavery. But at least we're in agreement on all that you typed, sorry if it seemed I was implying it about this peice of legislation or terror-profiling.
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Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby James » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:41 pm

Apparently I'm out in left field somewhere. Forgive me. :)
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Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:51 pm

James wrote:Apparently I'm out in left field somewhere. Forgive me. :)


:oops: No worries, lord knows you guys have been patient with me.
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Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby Mistelten » Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:10 am

Right. The pressure on extremist factions with stockpiles of arms is much more of a infringement on persona liberties than stripping those of all Americans.

Burning down a church full of people was a lot more extreme than any vague official erosion of liberties. I don't know why you people feel the need to take up for Janet Reno and the ATF. The ATF agents - arrogant anti patriots - were showing off and got their moronic selves shot when trying to abuse someone's rights, so they turned it into a siege and ended up barbecuing all of those people to save them from a man who made routine visits to downtown Waco. The next day, the impeached President Clinton called the victims a "bunch of religious fanatics" who basically deserved what they got. That's why Clinton was hated, and it's the kind of things which led the pendulum towards Bush. It is much more a concrete example of tyranny than the Patriot act and it shows why we should disband this failed state: They showed that they can and will do anything to their own citizens if they so choose to brand them as extremists. You can't just dismiss the Waco victims because you disagree with their religion. Either liberty is universal in this country or we should form a better country of our own. In my opinion, liberty is a joke both to the ruling class and to most people because they are so distracted by the proverbial bread and circuses.
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Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:03 am

Mistelten wrote:Burning down a church full of people was a lot more extreme than any vague official erosion of liberties.


Logistically this just isn't correct. "Any Vague official erosion of liberties" is signifigant for a number of reasons. For the analogy you draw and you bring I'll illuminate two. For one, for someone who is obsessed with 'liberty' and fear of the federal government grabbing it away greedily, you sure pass it off as no big deal compared to a situation where the people had an interest to be concerned. Secondly, that "vagueness" and the fact that its national erosion effects everyone, not just some nutjobs. Statistically speaking, since you love making comparisons of things "significance", one is much more likely to effect everyone. Furthermore, I feel no pity for those people. They were idiots.


I don't know why you people feel the need to take up for Janet Reno and the ATF.


I don't know why you people feel the need to refer to other Americans as "you people", what are you? You know insane rhetoric is incoming when you hear "well you people!".


The ATF agents - arrogant anti patriots - were showing off and got their moronic selves shot when trying to abuse someone's rights, so they turned it into a siege and ended up barbecuing all of those people to save them from a man who made routine visits to downtown Waco. The next day, the impeached President Clinton called the victims a "bunch of religious fanatics" who basically deserved what they got.


They did get, mostly, what they deserved. I feel horrible for those who were there against their wishes and got caught up in it. They deserved better. But Clinton/Reno/ATF are not the ones that should be blamed, its the idiots who created the situation.


That's why Clinton was hated, and it's the kind of things which led the pendulum towards Bush.


You live under a rock? This is the reason Clinton was hated? First of all, Clinton's never really been hated (overall). Second, there were plenty more things for the Clinton administration to get jumped for then Waco. Long-term speaking, America doesn't feel pity for Waco.


It is much more a concrete example of tyranny than the Patriot act and it shows why we should disband this failed state: They showed that they can and will do anything to their own citizens if they so choose to brand them as extremists.


:roll: :roll: I'm not sure its even worth having a discussion with this kind of nutty rhetoric. You have no concept of scope or size or magnitude.




You can't just dismiss the Waco victims because you disagree with their religion.


Never did. I've dismissed them not because of what they believed, but because of how they acted. Which was, as extremists.


Either liberty is universal in this country or we should form a better country of our own.


A) Liberty is never universal. Nor is it unlimited, nor unconditional.
B) Our own? Who in the hell are you speaking for? Please don't reply with something useless like "those who love liberty!" or "those not afraid to take a stand!" You are not speaking for me, or for the majority of Americans. So unless you belong to some special group your usage of the word "our" is improperly utilized.


In my opinion, liberty is a joke both to the ruling class and to most people because they are so distracted by the proverbial bread and circuses.


In my opinion, you live way out there.
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Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby Antiochus » Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:43 pm

James wrote: If the good Muslims out there don't want to be profiled they need to stand up against the bad Muslims, and that's something they don't do with any respectable frequency. Anyway, that's a discussion for another topic.


Sorry for my lateness...

But I think you don't really understand that this is what many Muslims have been doing for the past 20 years. The sole problem is that they kept getting shot down over the years by the lack of exterior support, media presence and violent repression. I can name you a half a dozen of moderate Muslim movements who have been ''standing up'' to radicalism in Montreal alone, and several dozens in the middle east itself. The sole problem is that its hard to stand up to aggressive regimes who can imprison or kill you and its even harder to do it when the said government is supported by the leader of the free world (take Saudi Arabia for exemple).

It is also important to note that even the moderate groups agree with their terrorist counterparts on some issues, such as the fact that the US attacked Iraq to steal their resources and to establish an hegemonic control over the region (an opinion shared by westerners), that Israel is choking the Palestinian people since the fifties (again, something that is not entirely unfounded, though emotional) and that most of the political chaos of the middle east can be attributed to the backlash of colonialism and the Sykes-Picot Treaty (historically defendable on several points).

Im done, Im not going to make it more of an issue than this...
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Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby James » Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:17 pm

Antiochus wrote:Sorry for my lateness...

I'm simply suggesting that the backlash from the Muslim community is little more than a squeak in a warehouse. Sure, you can name some people who are standing up against it, but there is no overbearing backlash and no great outcry among their community--nothing like you would see in other communities. And when I see Muslims who *aren't* insane killers interviewed about this they are almost always quite evasive and coy about the whole issue. I'm not sure if that is born of fear or sympathy. Even the Muslims I know who disagree with what has been done--they aren't harsh with their bad counterparts on the issue and can even become quite defensive (about the bad stuff, not when being personally attacked).
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Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:34 pm

James wrote:
Antiochus wrote:Sorry for my lateness...

I'm simply suggesting that the backlash from the Muslim community is little more than a squeak in a warehouse. Sure, you can name some people who are standing up against it, but there is no overbearing backlash and no great outcry among their community--nothing like you would see in other communities. And when I see Muslims who *aren't* insane killers interviewed about this they are almost always quite evasive and coy about the whole issue. I'm not sure if that is born of fear or sympathy. Even the Muslims I know who disagree with what has been done--they aren't harsh with their bad counterparts on the issue and can even become quite defensive (about the bad stuff, not when being personally attacked).



I agree and disagree with this. I agree that the backlash that you mention is indeed minimal. While I find it reassuring and refreshing to see moderate Muslims speak out, that voice is faint and rarely contains teeth. I would love to see progressive muslim movement who vehemently campaigned against their counterparts. Hell, I'd like to see moderte muslim goverments supressing violent muslim movements, and not just in declratations.

I think it makes a sad picture for the rest of the world. We hear them burst into uproars when their civil liberties are threatened or they are profiled. Thats when they are most vocal and campaign the most effectively. Yet when it comes to supressing the causes which give them the stereotypes which alienate them from the rest of the modern world James is accurate to point out how modestly they approach things.

On the other hand,I don't think this kind of reaction is relegated to Muslims alone. I think Christians do as well. I don't now how many times I've seen people casually saw 'oh im christian and i dont approve of that, but oh well'. I'm sure its not only a response relegated to religious groups either, but perhaps groups in general.

In addition to this, I think you should make the same charge against all races. If the Hispanics in America don't want to get profiled by police, they need to take action as well at destroying their stereotype. Living in the South, I've seen some successes here. But this is just an example, all groups deal with identity issues I assume.
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Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby James » Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:38 pm

Shikanosuke wrote:On the other hand,I don't think this kind of reaction is relegated to Muslims alone. I think Christians do as well. I don't now how many times I've seen people casually saw 'oh im christian and i dont approve of that, but oh well'. I'm sure its not only a response relegated to religious groups either, but perhaps groups in general.

If most any other Christian group started blowing up buildings, planes, and subways, see just how well that idea would hold up. Even the most guarded Christian religions(e.g. Catholics, Mormons) go up in arms, as members, when something truly out-of-line takes place. They may be guarded about some things (e.g. I don't hear too many Catholic members speaking out against the fun altar-boy adventures) but there's a scale to consider here as well.
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