Barack Obama

Discuss events that have an impact on you and the world today. A home for honest, serious, and open discussion.

Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby Mistelten » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:08 am

Forgive me.

On the upside, if people are supporting whatever Obama does, it just makes my job easier. I'll be fighting wars until I retire, it looks like, and if people don't want Obama to lose in Afghanistan, then that will play in our favor.
User avatar
Mistelten
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2830
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2004 5:12 am

Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:26 am

Mistelten wrote:There are some areas where the Bushes and their administrations were conservative, some centrist, and some leftist.



But none matter, so long as the one you pick out to make them leftist is to you the most important is signifying who they were.
User avatar
Shikanosuke
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 4397
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:22 am
Location: US

Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby Mistelten » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:30 pm

Because, like I said, that particular issue dwarfs the others in signifigance, both in its economic and in its social cost. Also important is the human cost: we are dying for the benefit of social marxism. Anti-border legislation and intervention is anti-nationalist and racist at its core. It is internationalist in the worst way - it takes from a productive nation to empower the corrupt and unproductive nations.
If there is an upside to Obama, it's that amnesty doesn't seem to be quite so pressing on his agenda as it was for Bush and would have been for McCain.
User avatar
Mistelten
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2830
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2004 5:12 am

Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:51 pm

Mistelten wrote:Because, like I said, that particular issue dwarfs the others in signifigance,


Right, you're freaked at anti-border legislation as Marxist yet don't give significance to the erosion of the basic liberties the colonists you so admire fought and died for. Its basic pick-and-choose.
User avatar
Shikanosuke
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 4397
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:22 am
Location: US

Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby Mistelten » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:38 pm

The biggest attacks on personal liberty came in the 90's: the Waco massacre, etc. Those were a bigger deal than wiretapping and the like, although most conservative thinkers I admire were against them. I think it's not such a simple issue as people make it out to be. If the government wants to spy on its citizens, they aren't going to put it into law, they're just going to do it. Also, dozens of people aren't killed a day because of the Patriot Act - they are by immigrants. Even more importantly, importing the uneducated into a country with an educational system that was designed to fail IS the most threatening thing that could have possibly been done to our liberties short of putting citizens in internment camps. It is more important in every possible way and it is also something that no one in either party wants to talk about, which is all the more reason to sever their dead weight from us.

A lot of the problems simply weren't addressed in the past 8 years and they probably won't be under Obama. Our prison population is likely to be just as high, if not higher, in four years as it is now. This is why I keep saying that we need to wait and see. Obama is a blank slate. I don't really see anything there. All we have to go on is his rule by executive order and massive spending on Leftist projects. It's not a good sign.
User avatar
Mistelten
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2830
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2004 5:12 am

Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:27 am

Mistelten wrote:The biggest attacks on personal liberty came in the 90's: the Waco massacre, etc. Those were a bigger deal than wiretapping and the like, although most conservative thinkers I admire were against them.


Right. The pressure on extremist factions with stockpiles of arms is much more of a infringement on persona liberties than stripping those of all Americans. :roll: Please.


Also, dozens of people aren't killed a day because of the Patriot Act - they are by immigrants.


No one said they were killed by the Patriot Act. We said it was an intentional erosion of guaranteed liberties. The fact that immigrants may or may not kill people is unrelated to this fact. You realize, on the converse, they are not killed by immigrants as well yes?


Even more importantly, importing the uneducated into a country with an educational system that was designed to fail IS the most threatening thing that could have possibly been done to our liberties short of putting citizens in internment camps. It is more important in every possible way and it is also something that no one in either party wants to talk about, which is all the more reason to sever their dead weight from us.


I don't think anyone intentionally is importing anyone here, and please don't say "us" as if the majority of Americans are behind you on seceding.


A lot of the problems simply weren't addressed in the past 8 years and they probably won't be under Obama. Our prison population is likely to be just as high, if not higher, in four years as it is now.


Nothing which points a leftist point of view.
User avatar
Shikanosuke
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 4397
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:22 am
Location: US

Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:11 am

To be honest, I don't support the repeal of the USA PATRIOT Act - I think a lot of it is valuable in protecting American society from very real threats. That said, a lot of it is kind of worrisome in how far it extends the powers of the federal government, and I would like to see it amended such that the organisations like the DoHS and the FBI are somehow held to account for their actions under the Act by the American public they are supposed to protect.

Shikanosuke wrote:
Even more importantly, importing the uneducated into a country with an educational system that was designed to fail IS the most threatening thing that could have possibly been done to our liberties short of putting citizens in internment camps. It is more important in every possible way and it is also something that no one in either party wants to talk about, which is all the more reason to sever their dead weight from us.


I don't think anyone intentionally is importing anyone here, and please don't say "us" as if the majority of Americans are behind you on seceding.


The public school systems are not intrinsically designed to fail; the reasons failures do happen inside them are many, and assuming failure by design seems to me just like a way to dodge responsibility. The breakdown of the nuclear family is of far greater concern to me than any failure on the part of the public school system (which in general is a reflection of the society); to be honest, the immigrant families I've known in my time have seem far more functional and happy than the average native family where I work (less divorce, less teen pregnancy, less drama all around) - though the burdens of being poor are great for both immigrants and natives.

That said, I agree fully with Shikanosuke here. Advocating secession is pretty pathetic - you never saw liberals calling for secession when Bush was in power (only the occasional threatened change-of-address to Quebec).
Some more blood, Chekov. The needle won't hurt, Chekov. Take off your shirt, Chekov. Roll over, Chekov. Breathe deeply, Chekov. Blood sample, Chekov! Marrow sample, Chekov! Skin sample, Chekov! If I live long enough... I'm going to run out of samples.
User avatar
WeiWenDi
Hedgehog Emperor
 
Posts: 3855
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:09 am
Location: L'Étoile du Nord

Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:21 am

WeiWenDi wrote:To be honest, I don't support the repeal of the USA PATRIOT Act - I think a lot of it is valuable in protecting American society from very real threats. That said, a lot of it is kind of worrisome in how far it extends the powers of the federal government, and I would like to see it amended such that the organisations like the DoHS and the FBI are somehow held to account for their actions under the Act by the American public they are supposed to protect.


Had it been passed under different circumstances, with more discussion of intention and more disclosure, I might support portions of it as well. But as it was, I think it was done rashly. Ironically, those who now say Obama/Congress is utilizing the crisis for his own goals are those who had no problem with Bush/Congress using the crisis for his ends.
User avatar
Shikanosuke
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 4397
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:22 am
Location: US

Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby James » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:27 am

Shikanosuke wrote:Had it been passed under different circumstances, with more discussion of intention and more disclosure, I might support portions of it as well. But as it was, I think it was done rashly. Ironically, those who now say Obama/Congress is utilizing the crisis for his own goals are those who had no problem with Bush/Congress using the crisis for his ends.

The Patriot Act is the Patriot Act. Whatever we think of it now should be based on what it means, not how it was created. There's no sense bringing emotions into politics on that level.

As for the second part, too true... too true.
Kongming’s Archives – Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel, History and Games
“ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
  — Ben Franklin
User avatar
James
Sausaged Fish
Sausaged Fish
 
Posts: 18000
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:21 pm
Location: Happy Valley, UT

Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:21 pm

James wrote:
Shikanosuke wrote:Had it been passed under different circumstances, with more discussion of intention and more disclosure, I might support portions of it as well. But as it was, I think it was done rashly. Ironically, those who now say Obama/Congress is utilizing the crisis for his own goals are those who had no problem with Bush/Congress using the crisis for his ends.

The Patriot Act is the Patriot Act. Whatever we think of it now should be based on what it means, not how it was created. There's no sense bringing emotions into politics on that level.

As for the second part, too true... too true.


I'll be honest and say I don't see how the two parts aren't unrelated nor how a peice of legislation is crafted is irrelevant to what it means. I'm not saying I will dwell on it, but much like legislation which burdens a racial minority I think theres no harm in noting who and why it was passed.
User avatar
Shikanosuke
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 4397
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:22 am
Location: US

PreviousNext

Return to Current Affairs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved

 
cron