Barack Obama

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Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:28 am

Mistelten wrote:The last twenty years had administrations that were socially to the left,


The two Bush administrations were socially leftist?


I have my own hopes but I wonder how many there are who care about liberty any more.


I'll assume you mean economically?

Those who voted for Obama thinking that he was an anti-war politician were fools. The wars will escalate. If the US will collapse from this new ideologically based spending, the war will only speed the process along.


Perhaps other people can illuminate this, but I didn't think that was a large part of his campaign message. I thought he in fact had to combat such a message, laying it out clearly that he was going to continue the war on terror? Perhaps I was wrong, but I didn't vote for him in the hopes he'd be a dove.
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Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby Mistelten » Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:52 am

You may have voted for your own beliefs, and I think that most Obama voters understood that he wasn't actually going to stop the wars. He did get the anti-war vote though, and for what reason I have no idea. Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich were actual anti-war candidates. If the anti-war Left actually voted for Obama just for his (meaningless) pledge to close Guantanamo's detention camp then they are more malleable than even I had assumed.

The two Bush administrations were socially leftist?

Yes. The short answer is the border with Mexico.
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Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:24 am

Mistelten wrote:
The two Bush administrations were socially leftist?

Yes. The short answer is the border with Mexico.


So we ignore the Patriot Act, moratorium on stem cell research, and support of pro-life movements?
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Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby Mistelten » Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:40 am

In comparison to the social chaos caused by the border, they are insignifigant. Pandering to pro-life movements didn't save a single baby from being dismembered without anesthetic, so it is meaningless.
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Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby Antiochus » Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:45 am

Mistelten wrote:You may have voted for your own beliefs, and I think that most Obama voters understood that he wasn't actually going to stop the wars. He did get the anti-war vote though, and for what reason I have no idea. Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich were actual anti-war candidates. If the anti-war Left actually voted for Obama just for his (meaningless) pledge to close Guantanamo's detention camp then they are more malleable than even I had assumed.


Well, he did offer a different approach to his approach (as in opposed to McCain).
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Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:49 am

Mistelten wrote:In comparison to the social chaos caused by the border, they are insignifigant. Pandering to pro-life movements didn't save a single baby from being dismembered without anesthetic, so it is meaningless.


So this is basically pick and choose your social areas to call Bush a leftist? Attempting to subvert constitutional rights, end stem cell funding based on religious ideology, and allow "enhanced interrogation techniques" were all not leftist social moves, nor was any of his agenda/beliefs. So while you may disagree with one of his policy choice, I don't think this makes him a leftist.
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Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby Mistelten » Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:36 am

For the record, I don't think subverting constitutional rights is a Right/Left thing. Either extreme would do it. Leftists who I respect, like Chomsky, are consistent in that they are in fact liberal in the traditional sense of the word, unlike outright Communists who really don't care about anyone's rights or liberties.
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Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:40 am

Mistelten wrote:For the record, I don't think subverting constitutional rights is a Right/Left thing. Either extreme would do it. Leftists who I respect, like Chomsky, are consistent in that they are in fact liberal in the traditional sense of the word, unlike outright Communists who really don't care about anyone's rights or liberties.



Agreed, but for the logic I think you pick and choose on who you define as "leftist" based on what issues you take with them.
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Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby Mistelten » Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:56 am

There are some areas where the Bushes and their administrations were conservative, some centrist, and some leftist. I think that in the most important area they were internationalist and therefore on the left side of the issue. It isn't that I want to say "bad = left = left = bad." I think that socially they were very much on the left because they actively continued social policy that undermined the right, such as "no child left behind." All of the money they wasted on "conservative" projects was a bad idea, but the ironic thing is that conservative, in this country, usually means non-interference. Calvin Coolidge, by this definition, was the arch-conservative. So I suppose you could say that they actively pursued some conservative projects, but I think that by nature, they were akin to the left and, more importantly, they were wasteful.

A better and more proactive project would have been to make the border patrol stronger. Not only did this not happen, but they actually made the border patrol's life almost impossible with miserable funding, insufficient equipment, and allowing them to be taken to court on bogus charges.
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Re: Barack Obama

Unread postby Patricoo » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:05 am

Mistelten wrote:There are some areas where the Bushes and their administrations were conservative, some centrist, and some leftist. I think that in the most important area they were internationalist and therefore on the left side of the issue. It isn't that I want to say "bad = left = left = bad." I think that socially they were very much on the left because they actively continued social policy that undermined the right, such as "no child left behind." All of the money they wasted on "conservative" projects was a bad idea, but the ironic thing is that conservative, in this country, usually means non-interference. Calvin Coolidge, by this definition, was the arch-conservative. So I suppose you could say that they actively pursued some conservative projects, but I think that by nature, they were akin to the left and, more importantly, they were wasteful.

A better and more proactive project would have been to make the border patrol stronger. Not only did this not happen, but they actually made the border patrol's life almost impossible with miserable funding, insufficient equipment, and allowing them to be taken to court on bogus charges.


Now this is getting a bit far from Obama for me.
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