UK Politics

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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:12 pm

WeiWenDi wrote:
Sun Fin wrote:But if you read the rest of my post you would of seen that my problem comes when they want to change laws that are there to promote tolerance, like 'Gay rules', which is afterall what they want from us. Also when there laws will conflict with Christian beliefs. Also as you notice Jesus helped the 'sinners' of the day and then encouraged them to follow the rules he was setting down. Which is in effect what I'm supporting here. He promoted tolerance but not at the expence of our morals which as I just said is what I'm against.


Yes, but when Jesus urged repentance, he did it Socratically through parables and through analogies. Jesus not only bent the rules, he broke them - he dined with people who were considered 'unclean', his followers did not wash their hands or their utensils, and he overturned the moneychangers' tables at the temple when people could not pay to get in. Also, Jesus never 'set down' any rules, but rather embodied the completion of the spirit of the rules that were already there. He never demanded of anyone that they change who they are, only that they in humility and love take up their own crosses and follow, and he never spoke of damnation to the sinners. Interestingly enough, the only people to whom Jesus ever spoke of damnation were those who were so convinced of their rightness that they would not bend their 'morals' (such as working on the Sabbath or observing cleanliness laws and Temple protocol) to recognise the intrinsic worth of other human beings.


Again you are half right but what I'm saying are often about losing tolerance of others. Like the down treading of women and Gay rights. Jesus never stood by and watched someone buly someone else. Mary the prostitute being an example. As you said he expected them to pick up their cross, which means being toleration of other beings religons hich while I reconise many Christians are bad at the church as a whole isn't. Look at the Arch Bishop saying that muslim preists should be represented in the Houses of Parliment (again something I agree with). But other religons need to be willing to comprimise too on things that aren't at the core of their beliefs. Jesus did preach a strong moral code though and his disciples who Christian believe were filled with the holy spirit did set down laws. He may not of spoke damnation but he did say that people would be judged and that is something which I think Christians can't forget.
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:11 pm

Sun Fin wrote:Again you are half right


:lol: I wouldn't go that far. Sometimes, I think I don't even ask the right questions!

Sun Fin wrote:but what I'm saying are often about losing tolerance of others. Like the down treading of women and Gay rights. Jesus never stood by and watched someone buly someone else. Mary the prostitute being an example.


It's very interesting you should bring this up - how did he rescue the prostitute who was being stoned? Was not Jesus' approach here also incredibly Socratic - he did not rush in with force to prevent them from stoning her, but didn't he say to the crowd that he among them who was without sin should cast the first stone? And which of them felt himself to be without sin? I'm not proposing that we stand by while abuse is occurring, but I do think that our approach to the Muslim community should be equally Socratic - and we of the Christian tradition ought, as Duncan hinted, to examine ourselves. Do we think ourselves to be without sin?

Sun Fin wrote:But other religons need to be willing to comprimise too on things that aren't at the core of their beliefs. Jesus did preach a strong moral code though and his disciples who Christian believe were filled with the holy spirit did set down laws.


I agree with the first. I think it ought to be done through communicative action.

I agree with the latter, too. But the moral code that Jesus preached was not a new one - 'love your neighbour and love God' as the heart of the law is not his own invention but that of Moses, and he did say that he had not come to change one iota of the law. Also, I find that too many Christians over-emphasise the epistles of Paul, which are useful for laying the groundwork of the church, but it's disappointing how many of them do so at the expense of the Gospel message.

Sun Fin wrote:He may not of spoke damnation but he did say that people would be judged and that is something which I think Christians can't forget.


:lol: All the more reason we shouldn't play the churlish servant who demands from his fellow the week's pay he loaned him, when all his own debts have been forgiven. Right?
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:58 pm

It's very interesting you should bring this up - how did he rescue the prostitute who was being stoned? Was not Jesus' approach here also incredibly Socratic - he did not rush in with force to prevent them from stoning her, but didn't he say to the crowd that he among them who was without sin should cast the first stone? And which of them felt himself to be without sin? I'm not proposing that we stand by while abuse is occurring, but I do think that our approach to the Muslim community should be equally Socratic - and we of the Christian tradition ought, as Duncan hinted, to examine ourselves. Do we think ourselves to be without sin?


Not at all, I fail everyday, I aknowledge that I sin and I try hard to not make the same mistakes twice but sometimes you have to do something to realise that its wrong. I agree with you in most cases but when it comes to the abuse of our fellow humans I don't like leaving it like that. Then comes the endless and pointless theology in that Jesus knew what the result would be so she was never in harm and if someone did throw the first stone would he of done something to prevent it?

'love your neighbour and love God' as the heart of the law is not his own invention but that of Moses, and he did say that he had not come to change one iota of the law.


The first point says that we shouldn't sot back and watch people take abuse, otherwise we are as bad as the priest in the story of the Good simarition are we not? Second point as you said not to change the law but to offer forgiveness. That still means the law is there, that we need to follow it and that it is right and we should still try and live our lives like that when it doesn't conflict with the two most important rules.

All the more reason we shouldn't play the churlish servant who demands from his fellow the week's pay he loaned him, when all his own debts have been forgiven. Right?


Indeed, I've nver said I'm perfect and I know my sin and I work it out with God on a regular basis but thats all the more reason to try and help others get there is it not?
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:23 pm

Sun Fin wrote:Not at all, I fail everyday, I aknowledge that I sin and I try hard to not make the same mistakes twice but sometimes you have to do something to realise that its wrong. I agree with you in most cases but when it comes to the abuse of our fellow humans I don't like leaving it like that.


Nor do I. But think about how successful abuse counselling works for a second - the first step involved is to separate and shelter the abused one from the abuser; the second step is to open a discussion about it; the third step is to employ legal and social measures against the abuser if he persists or refuses to listen. I think that these steps are applicable to these situations within the Muslim community as well.

Sun Fin wrote:Then comes the endless and pointless theology in that Jesus knew what the result would be so she was never in harm and if someone did throw the first stone would he of done something to prevent it?


I agree that such theology is indeed endless and pointless, in that it denies the humanity of God which his deity must encompass. Jesus Christ is God in human form, with every grain of our human vulnerability, having foregone omnipotence on the cross in favour of human freedom, and having foregone omniscience for the same reason. If Christ already knew what the adulteress' tormentors would do, that would have negated their free will, and by that point all of Christianity has been pretty much obliterated but that empty, depressing, confining chaff which John Calvin sought to preserve (and which most Calvinists have ever since been trying to correct - some, like Barth, with more success than others).

Sun Fin wrote:The first point says that we shouldn't sot back and watch people take abuse, otherwise we are as bad as the priest in the story of the Good simarition are we not? Second point as you said not to change the law but to offer forgiveness. That still means the law is there, that we need to follow it and that it is right and we should still try and live our lives like that when it doesn't conflict with the two most important rules.


No, of course we shouldn't sit back and watch people take abuse (again, I never said any such thing) - but when we can take action against it that does not rely upon force or upon kicking people out, we should take that action.

Sun Fin wrote:Indeed, I've nver said I'm perfect and I know my sin and I work it out with God on a regular basis but thats all the more reason to try and help others get there is it not?


Depends on what you mean by 'help others get there'. If someone is hurting because they refuse to surrender some self-destructive behaviour, of course they should be encouraged to give up that behaviour, and evangelism does work in many cases with alcoholism and drug addiction (though, I would argue, for Kantian reasons as much as Christian). But even among some Christian communities, there are people who give over to another person - a pastor, a parent - the tasks of bearing responsibility for their own direction in life, and that is wrong. No one else can carry your cross and walk for you - ideally, even when we are in communion with one another, the Church can live the paradox that we are all alone together.

I think we're kind of getting off-topic. Not that discussing theology with you isn't fun and engaging, mind you, but it's of rather tangential relevance to 'UK Politics'. Maybe we can open another thread in the Literature, Academics and Philosophy forum?
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:32 pm

WeiWenDi wrote:
I think we're kind of getting off-topic. Not that discussing theology with you isn't fun and engaging, mind you, but it's of rather tangential relevance to 'UK Politics'. Maybe we can open another thread in the Literature, Academics and Philosophy forum?


You are right of course, would you like to do the honours as I'm not sure what the topic should be titled :lol:. Well stansted has had plans to expand confirmed and many parties have started kicking up a fuss about it. I was half suprised that Lib Dems were against it as it is really the only pratical thing to do. People are always going to fly now and its better that people who live in and near Essex don't clog up London's busy road's (and polute them more). On the other hand I was suprised Cameron didn't kick up a fuss as he takes any chance to put down the government.
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:42 pm

Sun Fin wrote:You are right of course, would you like to do the honours as I'm not sure what the topic should be titled :lol:.


Here it is. Not the most imaginative title, but it should be able to get the ball rolling.

Sun Fin wrote:Well stansted has had plans to expand confirmed and many parties have started kicking up a fuss about it. I was half suprised that Lib Dems were against it as it is really the only pratical thing to do. People are always going to fly now and its better that people who live in and near Essex don't clog up London's busy road's (and polute them more). On the other hand I was suprised Cameron didn't kick up a fuss as he takes any chance to put down the government.


I can sort of understand both sides of this one. I remember when we had an airport expansion in my hometown in Wisconsin - a lot of the residents (including my family) opposed it on the grounds that the noise, environmental and safety concerns would make life miserable for a lot of us so that the rich people in the suburbs could fly their Cessnas, but this, for obvious reasons, is completely different. If the expansions are needed for passenger flights, and it would help London's local economy, I agree with you that there's a definite practical upside to it as well.
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:51 pm

Well its going to help Essex's economy more but less people will drive in to LOndon to get to Gatwick and other London airports. There are certainly disadvantages for those who live next door but its no that much different from those who have a motorway outside there house. Besides its better to expand a standing airport then build a new one. Its good to spread out the polution (both noise and gas) but not that much.

I'm bias though as I'll be using it once a year to fly to the US.
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:37 pm

I never thought I'd see the day a teacher was scared of telling a pupil off. I'll start at the beggining...

I'm now in 6 form and if I act violently towards a lower year I will be kicked out immaditely. Most people know this so some scummy (trying to stay polite) Yr11's stole our football. We eventually got it back intercepting a sloppy pass. But not before we were highly annoyed and one of us nursing a minor injury. When we went to teachers about it (who had been watching the whole thing) they refused to get involved. Now I was extremely annoyed and my Maths teacher sensing this next lesson asked what was wrong. When I explained he told me, to my shock, that teachers were getting scared of telling thoese students of because of repercutions on cars or homes.

I'm disguisted at first the law system and also our teacherrs cowardice. I've stuck up to bullys many times eventually getting beaten up for it. But still went to the police and recieved several threats other the months. I'm just a student and this shouldn't be my problem but it is. Its at times like this I see why the US allow guns and I wish the death sentance was around for anti social behaviour (obviously the extreme's like when the guy was kicked to death when protecting his car). Extreme I know but...
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby Duncan » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:50 pm

Sun Fin wrote:Extreme I know but...

Maybe a little. :wink:

The head is responsible for ensuring discipline amongst his staff and law-abiding behaviour amongst pupils on school premises. In this instance he has failed. In future if someone has stolen something and if teachers refuse to act, simply call the police directly. When they turn up at the gates of the school, something will be done - if nothing else it will cause embarassment to those who should be in authority.

It is a sad state of affairs. But what do I know. In my day teachers could knock seven bells of doo-doo out of you for running in the corridor. The wider implications are something the Daily Mail would love to bang on about - breakdown of law and order, lack of discipline and social cohesiveness, decline of teaching standards, etc. But is the answer really to go back to corporal and capital punishment?
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby English_Druid » Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:00 pm

I think it's unfair to call teachers cowards. Their primary role is to teach, but society now piles a plethora of other burdens onto their shoulders. The modern job specification for teachers must be enormous; they are everything from disciplinarian to moral compass. Parents seem to have delegated all their responsibilities to this class of educators, and are quick to blame teachers when their own children act in an anti-social manner. Add onto that the increased levels of bullying teachers face and a perceived increase in violence directed towards them, and it isn't surprising that they are becoming reluctant to intervene.
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