UK Politics

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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby Tigger of Kai » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:24 pm

WeiWenDi wrote:The question is: do you want their public behaviour to be accountable and accessible, or do you want to drive them underground, into alienation and possibly into violent action?

There, now you've got the hang of using the genuine, Islamist language of moral blackmail.

And there's nothing "public" or "accessible" about these sharia courts — that's the whole point. They're Muslim-only. If you don't like how they're run, so what? You have your courts, and we Muslims have ours, unbeliever. So butt out.


Ranbir wrote:Civil arbitration is not a threat. Only a third want it and that will decrease.

It's not a question of who wants it. There's no verse in the Koran that says "hey guys, it's OK to opt out". When they tried to push sharia on us Canadians, their main guy, Syed Mumtaz Ali, said, "A Muslim who would choose to opt out at this stage, for reasons of convenience would be guilty of a far greater crime than a mere breach of contract, and this would be tantamount to blasphemy — apostasy."

Islamic law applies to all Muslims, not just "those who want it", and the punishment for blasphemy/apostasy is death.

Ranbir wrote:This is unnecessary scaring. I mean, they have Mosques littered around the country too. Maybe we should stomp them out so they can't all gather in one place!

You saw on "Undercover Mosque" who is likely to do the stomping. The domination of the mosques by foreign-funded Islamists is a big part of the problem. We should demand: if you want special status in "our" legal system, then we want the right to debate you in your mosques, on gay rights, female circumcision, polygamy, and the separation of religion and the state.
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:54 pm

Tigger of Kai wrote:There, now you've got the hang of using the genuine, Islamist language of moral blackmail.


It's the language of democracy - deal with it. Those with greater political power have greater responsibility when it comes to open communication, and a democratic society will be judged by how it deals with minorities, and how it accommodates the atmosphere of communication within the society.

Tigger of Kai wrote:And there's nothing "public" or "accessible" about these sharia courts — that's the whole point. They're Muslim-only. If you don't like how they're run, so what? You have your courts, and we Muslims have ours, unbeliever. So butt out.


You are consistently and wilfully perpetuating Bawer's error of assuming that all Muslims are anti-British and hold British common law in contempt.

They are in the public eye, and if their rulings receive official recognition, they will ultimately be held accountable to British civil law, just as Beth Din court in Manchester is. And the reasonable, moderate Muslims have not said and will not simply say 'butt out' when it comes to respecting the rule of law and participation in the society (this article gives a good view of a moderate Sharia court in London, which as described pays respect to common law in its divorce counselling). If decisions made by these courts become legally binding, the British government will be allowed to pass regulations on how appointments are made to Sharia courts, for example (whereas no such regulation has existed to date because these institutions were extralegal).

Again, I'm not making any excuses for extremists - but this will isolate the extremists from Britain's more moderate Islamic population, by proving that Britain is willing to work with its minorities to ensure a secure nation.
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby Ranbir » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:02 pm

We should demand: if you want special status in "our" legal system, then we want the right to debate you in your mosques, on gay rights, female circumcision, polygamy, and the separation of religion and the state.


It isn't special status. British Law doesn't even recognise Islamic marriages. It doesn't recognise any religious marriage that isn't Christian.

And plus all that stuff weiwendi said. Yeah!
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:32 pm

Ranbir wrote:And plus all that stuff weiwendi said. Yeah!


:lol:

What, plus the 'we need to not slight the Islamic moderates' part or plus the ' :huohu: LONG LIVE RAMMS+EIN! :huohu:' part?
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby Duncan » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:40 pm

Tigger of Kai wrote:Islamic law applies to all Muslims, not just "those who want it", and the punishment for blasphemy/apostasy is death.

Who do you want to define what Islamic law actually says? Extremist Islamist rabble-rousers or moderate Muslim scholars licensed by government?

And in support of Ranbir "all that stuff weiwendi said. Yeah!". Incidentally I must listen to some Rammstein - when I have a few spare brain cells to kill. :lol:

Any more British banks gone bust while I wasn't watching?
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby Ranbir » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:44 pm

Prime Minister's Questions

Wasn't all to it this week. The first since the summer break, following a global financial disaster there was a lower atmosphere than one would expect with opposition grilling the PM. In a time of wanting to show unity, questions were focused on reassurances that the plan, everyone supported, would help the citizens and not help the bankers.

Brown didn't get into the rabble rousing of targeting bankers, which was important during a time when we need bankers to start lending again. Can't lower confidence by outright saying that even the good ones will be punished. Brown seemed to almost lead Cameron with, pulling out more and more questions before nailing him with an awesome comeback which showed Cameron's hypocrisy and shut him up for the rest of the afternoon.

Aside from that, there wasn't much else in it aside from some loaded questions.

--------------------
Some general stuff:
What I don't like is I want MPs to be in the Commons everyday for all the debates that occur. Or, at the very least have a sizeable number taking part. It pains me to see just half a dozen for important debates, such as the knife crime issue which Harriet Harmon herself scheduled and didn't even show up herself!


Stansted Airport got the go-ahead on the expansion. I'm a bit 50/50 on this. I'd rather have a major redevelopment and modernisation of the backbone of what made Britain great ; the railways. They made a mistake by not taking Brunel's broad gauge and I feel they're doing it again by putting focus on air travel.
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby Exar Kun » Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:45 pm

Lol, decaying Britain

Honestly, London used to be my favourite city in the world. WTF is wrong with these people.
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:20 pm

I'm not going to comment on most of whats been said as its out of my knowledge sphere but what I will say is, we are a Christian country. There are Muslim countrys to and as a Christian country I feel we should be more hospital to Christians as Muslims as would a Muslim contry really be tolerant of a Christian society? I realise I may be generalising here so in simpler terms my feelings are. I don't have a problem with immigrants as a whole (I know this is widening the issue a bit but you'll see where I'm going in a minuite) but if you come to our contry then you come knowing OUR rules and you shouldn't expect us to bend them to suit you. This seems to me to be wht many Muslim expect. Now I'm not saying that we should be completely untolerant but if we have mde a desicion to allow gay civil patnerships (something I agree with despite being anti gay as a whole) then you shouldn't expect us to change because you disagree.

Anyway thts my thoughts on the issue.
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby Tigger of Kai » Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:26 pm

Duncan wrote:Who do you want to define what Islamic law actually says? Extremist Islamist rabble-rousers or moderate Muslim scholars licensed by government?


Moderates...right. Moderates like the two government-approved advocates of sharia I cited above. Moderates like Yusuf Qaradawi, Ken Livingstone's favorite moderate Muslim, who legitimizes suicide bombing, saying, "Israelis might have nuclear bombs but we have the children bomb and these human bombs must continue until liberation." Moderates like Inayat Bunglawala, a Muslim Council of Britain man with a public record of support for Osama bin Laden, who was made a convener of Tony Blair's task force on extremism despite his stated belief that the BBC and the rest of the media are "Zionist controlled." Moderates like Iqbal Sacranie, OBE(!), who terms homosexuality "unacceptable", and says of his fellow knight of the realm, Salman Rushdie, that, "Death is a bit too easy for him".

These folks are always happy to declare to you that they are "moderates" — the term has no definition in scripture and is therefore meaningless to them. They are laughing at you behind their beards.

Yes, it seems that moderates are in good supply — but these "extremists" you speak of are getting harder and harder to find. Because a figure like the 36% I cited above can no longer be called extreme. Clearly the government's one and only duty in this matter is to protect apostates, gays, and young women from the tender mercies of these moderate fellows. Instead it has chosen to side with the oppressors, and it has done so out of fear.
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:23 pm

Tigger of Kai wrote:Instead it has chosen to side with the oppressors, and it has done so out of fear.


Pfft. Tigger, please. A minority of under three percent, with such small political clout within Britain, can hardly be called 'the oppressors' - really, the only people who would take something like that seriously would be BNP members. And to be honest, I'm not seeing much fear from the government of Britain about this - the fear seems to be coming from your end, actually, over a couple of people who have been a bit mouthy. Also, it's probably safe to say that MI5 does keep a fairly close eye on people like al-Qaradawi and Bunglawala, particularly after the London bombings.

On the other hand, despite Sacranie's outrage over The Satanic Verses (and, to be fair, there are Christians in the United States and elsewhere whose opinions on benign literature like Harry Potter get more extreme than Sacranie's), the record of the Muslim Council of Britain shows that it has done extremely good work (particularly in its 'Books for Schools' and 'Rights and Responsibilities' programmes, as well as in its interfaith dialogues with the Roman Catholics and with the Church of England), and it has been extremely diligent about speaking out against violence committed in the name of Islam and building support among Muslims for liberal Islamic education within the legal framework of British law - they represent, from what I've read online, 70% of Britain's Muslim population, though with about as much authority as the National Council of Churches represents Christians in the United States. These are the people whose goodwill and support we need in order to effectively combat religious violence.

(Also, I agree completely with the MCB's response to the Jyllands-Posten cartoons. They were poorly-drawn from an artistic standpoint, in poor taste and were deliberately slighting an ethno-religious minority, which was wrong, but though that was cause for public censure, that would have been no cause for censorship and certainly no excuse for violence.)

Sun Fin wrote:I'm not going to comment on most of whats been said as its out of my knowledge sphere but what I will say is, we are a Christian country. There are Muslim countrys to and as a Christian country I feel we should be more hospital to Christians as Muslims as would a Muslim contry really be tolerant of a Christian society?


Wouldn't you say that such an attitude betrays the Christian ideal? Rather than taking this attitude toward minorities, would it not be better to invite them to the table? What was Christ's behaviour toward the religious dissenters of his day (the Samaritan woman at the well, for example)? Who in Christ's parable was commended the most: the priest, the Levite, or the heretic who stopped to help a wounded man on the side of the road?

As a Christian (that is, as one who tries to follow Christ), I think that it would be better to support the good Muslims who value their own customs but would still stop to help the wounded man on the side of the road, than the ones who would rather pass them by or kick them out of the country.
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