UK Politics

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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby Lord Yang Jiahua » Thu May 16, 2019 6:04 am

Gotta say, i wish the UK would get it over with already.

Unless The Queen lives to 110, your gonna have what, King Charles the Third soon? Who should probably give it William (the sixth) i think? So thats gonna be major event.

Hearing things like "Britain won't have enough food" without a Brexit deal, that's wow, in America that's a thing unheard of despite our problems.

I noticed alot of ye-old "Continental Matters aren't our problem" feelings in the Brexit vote, alot of people seemed to be making the leave vote based on British Empire Era assumptions about the country.

Then when you look at what the votes are having problems with, its what a border in Northern Ireland? I know these seem like gross assumptions, and probably are, but unless we dig really far here across the pond Brexit isn't the foggiest problem for us to even mention in America. Mainly cuz of the fact that even the problems of Britain are so minor compared to ours as America.
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu May 16, 2019 10:06 am

I think we all wish that we could get on with it LYJ.

In terms of food shortages, it would only be a short term issue I think. If we crash out with a no deal the rules for trading will be very confused which may leave us vulnerable for a few weeks or so. I'd imagine in the slightly longer term things will return to normal but with a price hike as it will cost more to import. I wonder if it is as far away from your door as you think. I wonder how many people wake up each day in the USA unsure of where their next meal is coming from?

Your average Brit won't know of any of your problems in the USA either. Both of our news sources tend to spend most of their time reporting on ourselves. The modern west is incredibly self-absorbed. I remember watching an Olympics when I was in the USA visiting my uncle. A British athlete won the event and an American came 3rd. The Brit wasn't mentioned once in the US coverage, as they were too busy gushing over the America. Now don't hear me wrong, the absolute same happens here! I'm just warning you to not view it as a minor problem because you, a citizen in the USA, don't hear about it much. I read a mainstream newspaper yesterday evening and the news about Alabama rated a small article on the 6th page, yet that is an incredibly significant event regardless of what side you fall on the topic.

But going to the border problems in Ireland. It is a very significant problem. SunXia can talk about it with more authority than me but I remember as a child watching the news with my dad and hearing about bombs going of in Ireland, violence, murders and terrorism were every day occurrences. Since 1997 and the Good Friday Agreement amazing progress has been made down these lines. However if it isn't handled correctly then we could very easily go back to the period of the troubles, which would be an incredibly severe problem.

@DZ - I think the point about Jeremy Kyle is a very good one. I enjoyed watching it during my first degree, a fact that horrifies me now. Us viewers are worthy of as much blame as the people on the show.
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu May 16, 2019 2:04 pm

@DZ - I think the point about Jeremy Kyle is a very good one. I enjoyed watching it during my first degree, a fact that horrifies me now. Us viewers are worthy of as much blame as the people on the show.


Yeah I think the media going "blame ITV, blame Kyle" is ignoring the wider issue and ensuring their readers don't have to think about their part it in. People weren't forced to watch it, the media didn't have to report the shock horror moments with glee.

Lord Yang Jiahua wrote:Gotta say, i wish the UK would get it over with already.

Unless The Queen lives to 110, your gonna have what, King Charles the Third soon? Who should probably give it William (the sixth) i think? So thats gonna be major event.

Hearing things like "Britain won't have enough food" without a Brexit deal, that's wow, in America that's a thing unheard of despite our problems.

I noticed alot of ye-old "Continental Matters aren't our problem" feelings in the Brexit vote, alot of people seemed to be making the leave vote based on British Empire Era assumptions about the country.

Then when you look at what the votes are having problems with, its what a border in Northern Ireland? I know these seem like gross assumptions, and probably are, but unless we dig really far here across the pond Brexit isn't the foggiest problem for us to even mention in America. Mainly cuz of the fact that even the problems of Britain are so minor compared to ours as America.


So does most of the UK :lol:

Correct on numbers. Yeah that may hold things up further though I doubt the crown will skip a generation (and given a monarchy, I don't think it should though I think abdications for retirement need to become a thing)

I think food shortages will be short term in terms of "live aid three needed" but long term there will be less range of food, price hikes and types of food will become short at times. Medicine I am more concerned about if we end up with no deal Brexit

That is part of it. UK has always swayed between isolation from Europe and getting involved, the sense of a better past where UK was "sovereign" and it's use of Commonwealth (not working well so far) would see UK rule the waves once more as a great trading nation. That lure of the sea and of the past has always been around and played it's part. So far that idea is not living up to hype (we can't even get current deals swapped over)

Border is a huge issue. N.Ireland was ignored during the referendum as would be simple but people underestimated the problems which a lot of Westminster had thought was sorted. N.Ireland can't form a government due to hatred there, a journalist was recently murdered, peace is still fragile there. Fears on both sides of border that any such borders will hamper trade, basic quality of life and become symbolic targets for anybody with violent intent. It is, as Sun Fin says, a huge huge huge huge issue that if it goes wrong, could lead to the return of the troubles ie lots of death.

I agree with Sun Fin that I don't expect US to really cover Brexit (bar international story slot or to go "what the heck") as media focus on what interests their audience: their own country. We are the same, we do keep an eye on the US due to it's sheer power and culture but we won't follow the in's and outs. In terms of problems seeming so minor, we have many of the same problems as USA (much of same issues that led to Trump led to Brexit) while adding gridlocked parliament that can't pass anything more controversial then "chocolate is yummy" (I may be being generous), MP's under mental health strain, no idea who leader will be at end of year, huge issues to come due to a once in a life-time change (whichever form Brexit takes, it will change so much for good or for ill), potential shortages if things go wrong, companies pulling out of the country, the border issue....
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu May 16, 2019 3:29 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:

Unless The Queen lives to 110, your gonna have what, King Charles the Third soon? Who should probably give it William (the sixth) i think? So thats gonna be major event.


My concerns there are upholding the integrity of the Church of England which Charles will be head of. The guy who said he'd like to be protector of the faiths... I think things will have to change after the death of the current queen.
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu May 16, 2019 6:34 pm

News, May vs 1922 Committee, Brexit and Boris nightmares

-Sir Bone uses his activists letter to call for May to go at PMQ's

-Some unhappiness Morduant announced amnesty plan outside Commons

-Telegraph says if May doesn't agree to resign by summer recess then will be a plot to oust her by 12th June, on Grayling's humiliation

-Grayling's probation reforms reversed as government to take them all back into public service

-National Grid warns Labour plans to take energy into public ownership could hinder shift to make energy green due to amount of time, distraction taken to shift to public hands and lack of investment. Labour argue only public focus and money can bring green shift

-May says MP's have duty to get deal through, Ruth Davidson says Scotland should move on from referendums, Truss says if forced she would back no deal over Remain as a matter of trust. Dr Fox says if WTO Brexit then will need to be checks on goods and food crossing Irish border and would have to be urgent discussions on how to uphold Good Friday Agreement, sir Stramer says Labour would vote against deal that wasn't cross party, Stewart says government stuck in limbo and just wants to get it done so they can move on.

Treasurer Clifton-Brown says sooner May goes the better and if she doesn't set out timetable then 1922 will change rules to allow confidence vote to help MEP elections and succession, May's big mistake was allowing EU to set timetable. Paterson says May will destroy Tories and the union if she doesn't go now, Farage says May has turned us into laughing stock, Francois says ERG opposition to May's deal increasing

-Government rejects the definition of Islamophobia created by All-Party Parliamentary Group on British Muslims but with other parties having accepted this definition and Tories struggle with the issue, it has not gone down well (though Muslim groups seem split on the issue and police says it is too vague), Streeting [ul=https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/15/islamophobia-racism-definition-free-speech-theresa-may] defends the groups work and definition [/url]

-UKIP now no longer a formal grouping within Welsh Assembly has defections have left them with only two AM's

-Eyes were on what everyone assumed would a bloody 1922 Committee meeting with May even before it started. Went over two hours, 1922 Committee agree timetable after Brexit vote but Brady says this will happen even if vote loses and uses the code "very frank" to describe discussions, May has managed to push deadline further back but at considerable cost so Brady will see it as a compromise. Already row starting over timetable for contest, some want it done before summer recess but others will want longer for a proper contest

-House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee says HS2 will short-change north and aren't convinced the econimic argument stacks up

-Boris, to shock of nobody, says he will run for leader

-Javid wants tax help for smaller business and tech companies need to pay their fair share

-Youguv says only 13% find Labour's Brexit policy clear and only 17% the Tories (how is the Tories one unclear?)

-Cameron's memoir "for the record" to be out in September

====

-Kuessenberg's May's last gamble

-Newton Emerson predicts big things for Common Travel Area

Andrew Grimson conventional and condensing journalists has not been kind to May but history will be

-Peter Kellner says data shows Labour's Brexit policy is costing it votes

-Sienna Rodgers on Momentum's shift to policy discussion

-D'Ancona on revitalized Boris chances
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby Lord Yang Jiahua » Thu May 16, 2019 7:00 pm

Sun Fin wrote:
In terms of food shortages, it would only be a short term issue I think. If we crash out with a no deal the rules for trading will be very confused which may leave us vulnerable for a few weeks or so. I'd imagine in the slightly longer term things will return to normal but with a price hike as it will cost more to import. I wonder if it is as far away from your door as you think. I wonder how many people wake up each day in the USA unsure of where their next meal is coming from?


Yeah I know what you mean, but the issue in the US is you never hear it mentioned as a national thing. Oh sure, we get the sometimes story of poor people going hungry, or 1 in 7 Americans lacks food for the day, but the way the media tend to treat it is more like a "feel sorry for them" and "be glad thats not you" attitude. It never comes up in terms of "The UK as a nation may face a food shortage".

Its pretty evidenced when a warning about your tomatoes costing potentially 10 dollars if certain immigration related things go through over here, gets maybe a 5 minute blip, once on the news over here.

John Oliver on HBO tends to cover Brexit when it suits him, so theres that, though it tends to be a hilarious angry rant that is directly British.

I always felt the BBC was much more impartial and less-self-absorbed than say any U.S media, maybe its just the name.

I remember the BBC interview with the former Brazilian President (the woman who got ousted), she was about the only one on the "Hard Talk" segment who in fact beat the interviewer, and it was definitely convincing that the reason they got rid of her was because she was a woman. I always seem to catch the "Hard Talk" segment out here in the evening, and the point is, the BBC interviews are always much better and way more informative than American interviews(even the 60 minutes ones), they seem to get way more under the skin and way more genuine reactions from the interviewee than the very formalistic approach over here.

In response to Dong Zhou's Spoiler post - No the Prime Minister shouldn't go, changing the head of the deal is worse than tweaking what they have. As evidenced by the failed no-confidence votes.

I can draw a weird parallel to the hashtag Lindsay Graham should resign , that trended on twitter yesterday, except that Graham's hypocrisy is of the worst sort. (Selling out basically to be a good little Trump stooge), whereas the hypocrisy with Prime Minister May is that she'd actually make a deal (that also doesn't seem like a capitulation to the EU in some circles) and still hasn't. Its less so hypocrisy and more just failing to make everyone happy, which is always a tall order.

I heard a British super-libertarian ex-pat (Who lives in Portugal) some months back being interviewed by the BBC, the argument was that prices will make everything unaffordable and indebt the government if they subsidize goods and food to compensate, should there be a no deal Brexit. His reaction was one of callous disregard justified by not being beholden to the EU market.
(For what makes it across the pond, this is what i remember, i'll type more as i see things to respond to)
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri May 17, 2019 11:04 am

Lord Yang Jiahua wrote:
Yeah I know what you mean, but the issue in the US is you never hear it mentioned as a national thing. Oh sure, we get the sometimes story of poor people going hungry, or 1 in 7 Americans lacks food for the day, but the way the media tend to treat it is more like a "feel sorry for them" and "be glad thats not you" attitude. It never comes up in terms of "The UK as a nation may face a food shortage".


It could be the US media, as well as lack of focus, don't think we would actually go for no deal. If no deal is imminent, be intresting to see what outside media predict will happen

Its pretty evidenced when a warning about your tomatoes costing potentially 10 dollars if certain immigration related things go through over here, gets maybe a 5 minute blip, once on the news over here.


In fairness, UK tomato's has little impact on US and probably little intrest. Or am I misunderstanding what you mean here?

I always felt the BBC was much more impartial and less-self-absorbed than say any U.S media, maybe its just the name.


Over here, UK TV news (Sky News is main rival, channel 4 as well) are under obligation to be impartial, doubly so for BBC due to it being publicly funded. Our newspapers are the ones that tend for tribalism and scaremongering

I remember the BBC interview with the former Brazilian President (the woman who got ousted), she was about the only one on the "Hard Talk" segment who in fact beat the interviewer, and it was definitely convincing that the reason they got rid of her was because she was a woman. I always seem to catch the "Hard Talk" segment out here in the evening, and the point is, the BBC interviews are always much better and way more informative than American interviews(even the 60 minutes ones), they seem to get way more under the skin and way more genuine reactions from the interviewee than the very formalistic approach over here.


Good for BBC. Over here there is a media worry about the loss of the art of the interview bar Andrew Neill who is formidable.

In response to Dong Zhou's Spoiler post - No the Prime Minister shouldn't go, changing the head of the deal is worse than tweaking what they have. As evidenced by the failed no-confidence votes.


It is indeed a very very bad idea. Changing May doesn't change things for the better, it doesn't change the basic maths that has hamstrung May, it wastes time. All that might happen is a big no dealer takes over and tries to force no deal through over the objections of the Commons (would depend how EU reacts) but plenty of the ERG want that no deal or foolishly believe, against all evidence, a proper no dealer would bring EU to heel.

I can draw a weird parallel to the hashtag Lindsay Graham should resign , that trended on twitter yesterday, except that Graham's hypocrisy is of the worst sort. (Selling out basically to be a good little Trump stooge), whereas the hypocrisy with Prime Minister May is that she'd actually make a deal (that also doesn't seem like a capitulation to the EU in some circles) and still hasn't. Its less so hypocrisy and more just failing to make everyone happy, which is always a tall order.


May has so far managed better then any of the Brexiteers (DUP can't get deal in six counties, Fox has failed to roll over existing deals, Boris managed to get an innocent arrested by Iran, Davis and Raab got humiliated by Brussels) and she made a deal with 27 based on her reading of what the public wanted. It is far from a perfect deal but it is a deal. The problem for May is public don't like it (becuase it wasn't what was promised but May can't actually make unicorns real so was never going to happen), Remainers would oppose anything, opposition parties set unreasonable targets she could never meet and proposed unicorn versions, plenty of MP's want a very very very soft Brexit. Her hardlineers in the party and DUP want a harder Brexit and gambling that either no deal will happen or one of their own can take power.

May has done her job with duty and commitment but can not square the circle, natrually she as PM is blamed by press and MP's becuase to do otherwise would force them to look at themselves. MP's have literally vetoed every other option. Twice or more.

I heard a British super-libertarian ex-pat (Who lives in Portugal) some months back being interviewed by the BBC, the argument was that prices will make everything unaffordable and indebt the government if they subsidize goods and food to compensate, should there be a no deal Brexit. His reaction was one of callous disregard justified by not being beholden to the EU market.
(For what makes it across the pond, this is what i remember, i'll type more as i see things to respond to)


Yeah there have been a few "Brexit is good, now excuse me as I live abroad and move all my money and business abroad." There are stands that feel any price don't matter, "we lived through WW2, these snowflakes have no backbone and will be better for the suffering", naturally no MP would say that. But politically, what is said is there might be short term difficulty, that the scale of it gets over emphasised but the long term will be glorious.
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri May 17, 2019 1:37 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
I always felt the BBC was much more impartial and less-self-absorbed than say any U.S media, maybe its just the name.


Over here, UK TV news (Sky News is main rival, channel 4 as well) are under obligation to be impartial, doubly so for BBC due to it being publicly funded. Our newspapers are the ones that tend for tribalism and scaremongering

I remember the BBC interview with the former Brazilian President (the woman who got ousted), she was about the only one on the "Hard Talk" segment who in fact beat the interviewer, and it was definitely convincing that the reason they got rid of her was because she was a woman. I always seem to catch the "Hard Talk" segment out here in the evening, and the point is, the BBC interviews are always much better and way more informative than American interviews(even the 60 minutes ones), they seem to get way more under the skin and way more genuine reactions from the interviewee than the very formalistic approach over here.


Good for BBC. Over here there is a media worry about the loss of the art of the interview bar Andrew Neill who is formidable.


I think what LYJ was trying to get across in the first quote isn't that it's bias, just that it's less self-absorbed?

It has a decent international section but very little of it appears on the BBC's news program, or the front page of the BBC News website. You actively have to go looking for news about the USA, or Catalonia etc, unless it is a major headline and then it might be there, for a day or two tops though.

Just to illustrate my point, I watch BBC news coverage a couple of times a week and check their app and read stories that interest me every morning and I have no idea what you mean about the "hard talk" segment. I think that must be something that is only for US viewers because they think it will play well for that audience.

Dong Zhou wrote:
In response to Dong Zhou's Spoiler post - No the Prime Minister shouldn't go, changing the head of the deal is worse than tweaking what they have. As evidenced by the failed no-confidence votes.


It is indeed a very very bad idea. Changing May doesn't change things for the better, it doesn't change the basic maths that has hamstrung May, it wastes time. All that might happen is a big no dealer takes over and tries to force no deal through over the objections of the Commons (would depend how EU reacts) but plenty of the ERG want that no deal or foolishly believe, against all evidence, a proper no dealer would bring EU to heel.

I can draw a weird parallel to the hashtag Lindsay Graham should resign , that trended on twitter yesterday, except that Graham's hypocrisy is of the worst sort. (Selling out basically to be a good little Trump stooge), whereas the hypocrisy with Prime Minister May is that she'd actually make a deal (that also doesn't seem like a capitulation to the EU in some circles) and still hasn't. Its less so hypocrisy and more just failing to make everyone happy, which is always a tall order.


May has so far managed better then any of the Brexiteers (DUP can't get deal in six counties, Fox has failed to roll over existing deals, Boris managed to get an innocent arrested by Iran, Davis and Raab got humiliated by Brussels) and she made a deal with 27 based on her reading of what the public wanted. It is far from a perfect deal but it is a deal. The problem for May is public don't like it (becuase it wasn't what was promised but May can't actually make unicorns real so was never going to happen), Remainers would oppose anything, opposition parties set unreasonable targets she could never meet and proposed unicorn versions, plenty of MP's want a very very very soft Brexit. Her hardlineers in the party and DUP want a harder Brexit and gambling that either no deal will happen or one of their own can take power.

May has done her job with duty and commitment but can not square the circle, natrually she as PM is blamed by press and MP's becuase to do otherwise would force them to look at themselves. MP's have literally vetoed every other option. Twice or more. [/quote]

I have been an advocate of May from day 1. I think her deal is as good as it was ever going to get and her resilience has been truly impressive. However, I disagree with you both as I'm am beginning to think it might be time for her to go. Not because she has done things wrong, or deserves blame, but because large section of her party are idiots (I will refrain from using the same word as Major, no matter how much I am tempted). Her deal is not going to get through Parliament no matter how many times she tries, Labour aren't going to work with her and she isn't idiotic enough to take us out with no deal. I just can't see anything changing while she is in charge, unless she calls an election which would be a disaster as the idiotic British public would punish her severely for her perceived betrayal.

All that is happening is delaying the inevitable. I think at this point we need to see a hard-Brexiteer come in, fail, and then the parliament arithmetic might change. That is, of course, a huge gamble but there don't seem any more plays left at the moment.
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri May 17, 2019 4:07 pm

Sun Fin wrote:I have been an advocate of May from day 1. I think her deal is as good as it was ever going to get and her resilience has been truly impressive. However, I disagree with you both as I'm am beginning to think it might be time for her to go. Not because she has done things wrong, or deserves blame, but because large section of her party are idiots (I will refrain from using the same word as Major, no matter how much I am tempted). Her deal is not going to get through Parliament no matter how many times she tries, Labour aren't going to work with her and she isn't idiotic enough to take us out with no deal. I just can't see anything changing while she is in charge, unless she calls an election which would be a disaster as the idiotic British public would punish her severely for her perceived betrayal.

All that is happening is delaying the inevitable. I think at this point we need to see a hard-Brexiteer come in, fail, and then the parliament arithmetic might change. That is, of course, a huge gamble but there don't seem any more plays left at the moment.


Oh I agree May is doomed, she has lost the party and is only staying on as far as she has to take the election hits and give a successor a free run. Boris failing in Brussels, the reaction to that within parliament would be very intresting to see as to how all sides react, maybe that would change things. I more think we will slip into no deal by accident

news stories include talks ending
-Culture Committee launching inquiry into reality TV

-Papers on May's time running out and Boris declaring, press discussing and disagreeing on if May cried in 1922 committee while some not entirely convinced May will 100% go

-Labour and Tory talks have collapsed, Corbyn blames the instability beneath May means any agreement can't hold and felt timetable was rushed. Though it does seem to have been a mutual pull out as it is known Tory whips had given up and May is blaming Labour's split on second referendum, both careful to say the talks were constructive. Labour franticly denying leaked documents that suggests they agreed with May to attempt to block second referendum, may be indicative votes next week based on what was discussed, business groups scream.

-The main Stormont parties have asked Bradley to legislate to compensate victims of historical institutional abuse (which they can't do themselves because... oh right)

-Hollyrood equalities committee backs ban on smacking bill, SNP have backed it so bill likely to become law

-Sturgeon calls Boris a charlatan and his leadership would boost independence cause, Westminster failing everybody

======

-Education Minister Lord Agnew agrees to pass on Lord Singh's suggestion of having Trump sit in on climate change lesson to Foreign Office, the may not thank him.

-Angela Eagle LGBT rights were hard fought for but attitudes may be reversing

-Boris says there has been failure to build positive narrative over Brexit and lack of dynamism in talks, Swinney feels Boris as leader would lead to no deal, Sian Berry admits she regrets Greens call for first Brexit referendum, Dorries says Boris would get backstop removed. Lord Heseltine points out Brexiteers were appointed to key negotiating jobs so he doubts backstop hasn't been in tried, Powell and Boles says MP's won't be able to stop no deal Brexit after summer recess and they barely had the numbers last time while Boles says May's deal is last chance for referendum.

-Morgan says electoral pact with Brexit party would be death knell

====

-Gary Younge wonders why people are leaving Labour now when they stayed during Iraq war, an intresting argument (though I don't agree for a few reasons including it assume members leaving are same ones that stayed with Labour back then) but wonder if he might have been better leaving Anti-Semitism bit for separate article as rush on that section makes it clumsy despite best efforts.

-Kuessenberg on May's time is ending

-Emilio Casalicchio and Kevin Schofield blame game has begun

-Oliver Wiseman people are mishandling the Brexit party

-Tom Kibasi what happens now
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Re: UK Politics

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat May 18, 2019 6:13 pm

-Hancock says an election before Brexit is done risks Labour in power and killing Brexit, Vadarker calls end of talks a very negative development, May turns up at MEP election launch event unexpectedly but unable to smile. Brexit secretaries blame other side (Sir Stramer blames May's weaknesses, Barclay blames second referendum)

-Papers expect Boris to win Tory leadership though there is a stop Boris campaign among MP's but Sun notes Gove is picking up support and wants quick leadership election. Guardian changing it's climate change terms to "climate emergency, crisis or breakdown"while "Global heating" will replace "global warming".

-Ruth Davidson believes Tories can win back votes under new leader

-Corbyn says only Labour's radical reforms can address the issues that lead to rise of far right

-D'Arcy on The Week Ahead with select committee action

-Skidmore says universities need to do more on anti-Semitism including not asking Jews to fund their own security and adopting international definition

====

-Rachel Johnson bemoans being rat jumping on sinking ship, Chang UK is a a terrible name, wants to "focus-group everything" and has "a leadership team of about eleven people"

-Creasy compares Brexit to Monty Python foot that crushes everything, sees referendum as a terms and conditions referendum and personally doesn't think Brexit deal is better then what we have now, council of Europe impressed at how much British public now know of inner workings of EU. Even Francois is possibly sick of constant Brexit talk, people condemn Alabama on abortion while we are doing worse in N.Ireland to little comment, lessons haven't been learnt from Wonga thanks to Brexit sucking up focus

-Lord Hague wants long form interviews for leaders with so much news around

====

-Charlotte Henry Farage media strategy

-Iain Watson don't rule out May's deal just yet

-Foryth (sun) Brexit at risk, leadership race should be quick, state of play
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”

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Dong Zhou
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A-Dou
 
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Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

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