Russia invades Georgia

Discuss events that have an impact on you and the world today. A home for honest, serious, and open discussion.

Re: Russia invades Georgia

Unread postby Sima Hui » Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:30 pm

Koichi: Think you've left out de jure. South Ossetia is a de facto state, but not de jure; no one recognizes it. The territory of South Ossetia belongs by law to Georgia, which is both a de jure and de facto state.

Nevertheless, I think that both the precedent of Kosovo and the general fact that both Abkhazia and South Ossetia are de facto independent means that they should be seperate states. Considering how South Ossetia wants to unite with North Ossetia in Russia, then Russia has every business giving them passports. The fact that Abkhazia also declared independence indicates that neither state wants to be part of Georgia. Just because they were lumped together with Georgia does not justify their being bombed into submission by the Georgians. The fact that Georgia attacked after promising a ceasefire is both cowardly and despicable. I must admit that I reluctantly support Russia's help to the Ossetians, but I do not condone their further bombing of Georgia.
This topic is an affront to both The Man and The Son of the Man.

-Ts'aoist

Ssuma I sucks.
He was okay when he was an obedient slave of The Man.


-Ts'aoist

Join the Cult and receive the True and Holy Word of The Man.
Sima Hui
Cult of Ts'aoist
 
Posts: 1661
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:21 pm
Location: Serving the Most Sacred Disciple of the Man

Re: Russia invades Georgia

Unread postby Koichi » Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:35 pm

Sima Hui wrote:Koichi: Think you've left out de jure. South Ossetia is a de facto state, but not de jure; no one recognizes it. The territory of South Ossetia belongs by law to Georgia, which is both a de jure and de facto state.

Nevertheless, I think that both the precedent of Kosovo and the general fact that both Abkhazia and South Ossetia are de facto independent means that they should be seperate states. Considering how South Ossetia wants to unite with North Ossetia in Russia, then Russia has every business giving them passports. The fact that Abkhazia also declared independence indicates that neither state wants to be part of Georgia. Just because they were lumped together with Georgia does not justify their being bombed into submission by the Georgians. The fact that Georgia attacked after promising a ceasefire is both cowardly and despicable. I must admit that I reluctantly support Russia's help to the Ossetians, but I do not condone their further bombing of Georgia.


Right that's exactly what I meant, S. Ossetia is de facto, not de jure independent. So how could it be wrong for Georgia to assert themselves over a region that belongs to them anyway?

I think we opened up a nasty can of worms in Yugoslavia. History isn't replete with examples of nations militarily intervening on others for humanitarian purposes. The way I saw it, we didn't go into Bosnia or Kosovo to help rebel provinces secure independence from their sovereign, but to prevent the sovereign from committing genocide. Problem is, now it seems everyone trying to break away will claim genocide even if the damage was purely collateral.
User avatar
Koichi
Scholar of Shen Zhou
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1226
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:49 am
Location: NYC

Re: Russia invades Georgia

Unread postby Exar Kun » Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:05 pm

Georgia walked straight into a Russian trap. They should have had the sense to see the danger that came with so many getting Russian passports. Then add trying to reassert themselves militarily in a very sloppy way, they essentially did exactly what Russia likely wanted in the first place.

I'm wondering though how far the Georgian's logic could go anyway. Taiwan anyone?
And "lol" at the west bellowing disproportionate retaliation. Israel plowed through half of Lebanon over two soldiers and they were happy to be silent.

I heard a little bit ago that's there's a report that the Russian navy sank a Georgian missile boat.
"Two there should be; no more, no less.
One to embody the power, the other to crave it."
-Creed of the New Sith-
User avatar
Exar Kun
Dark Lord of the Sith
 
Posts: 3347
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:18 am
Location: Cruising the Nether

Re: Russia invades Georgia

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:14 pm

Koichi wrote:I can't help but side with Georgia on this one. I mean, de facto means just that, S. Ossetia is not recognized by anyone else in the world, including the Georgian president when he vowed to retake the province. As such, the country would have a right to assert it's sovereignty. Georgia, on the other hand, is not a de facto country. What business does Moscow have giving passports to foreigners then using them as a justification to attack a sovereign?


Regardless of what Moscow's or Tbilisi's motivations might be, the Ossetians are the ones caught in the middle here, and I must confess to having limited sympathy for a government like Georgia's that would pull such a stunt as it did. They may have had a claim to the region, but howitzering a civilian target in the initial offensive and then yelping about Russian 'aggression' when Russia steps in to protect its citizens (for its de jure citizens they are, regardless of the motivation of those who gave it to them) does not endear their cause to me, at least. Also, it is worth note that both the Abkhaz and the Ossetians (once the Alans) are distinct nations (even if they are not countries), with their own languages and interests, yet Georgia has treated them (ever since independence) as second-class citizens. I think the primary concern here should be for social justice for the residents of South Ossetia, even though (and this is my inner cynic speaking) that's probably not on the priority list in either Moscow or Tbilisi.

I am wondering whether or not the Ossetians would benefit from having their own nation internationally recognised as an independent state. It might turn out that an independent Ossetia-Alania would in short order become a Russian puppet, which might not be in the best interests of the Ossetians.
Some more blood, Chekov. The needle won't hurt, Chekov. Take off your shirt, Chekov. Roll over, Chekov. Breathe deeply, Chekov. Blood sample, Chekov! Marrow sample, Chekov! Skin sample, Chekov! If I live long enough... I'm going to run out of samples.
User avatar
WeiWenDi
Hedgehog Emperor
 
Posts: 3849
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:09 am
Location: L'Étoile du Nord

Re: Russia invades Georgia

Unread postby Tan_Binrui » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:48 am

Fighting is still happening.

Apparently, even though the Georgian President announced a ceasefire, a BBC reporter in the area reported that he still heard fighting during his stay in the Capital of South Ossetia. Russia is still bombing cities, and Georgia is still blaming Russia for everything they see.

It's become a real Grey Area. Now that Georgia was kicked into its place, Russia hasn't ended the hostilities. It's not hard for me to imagine, though, that Georgian forces haven't simply stopped showing aggression.
"Because he has died, there is no more room for death in him." -- Lao Tzu
User avatar
Tan_Binrui
Langzhong
 
Posts: 464
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:42 am
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Russia invades Georgia

Unread postby Sima Hui » Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:27 am

WeiWenDi wrote:I am wondering whether or not the Ossetians would benefit from having their own nation internationally recognised as an independent state. It might turn out that an independent Ossetia-Alania would in short order become a Russian puppet, which might not be in the best interests of the Ossetians.


In a volatile and fractured region such as the Caucasus, it's going to be nigh on impossible to have an Ossetia that isn't a puppet of someone, either the Russians or the Georgians. I doubt that having an independent state will make things any better for the Ossetians, since the international community has a vested interest in not making Russia mad.

War continues: Russia's obviously wanting to punish Georgia for their insolence; it's not just about withdrawing from South Ossetia, the Bear wants to put Georgia back in its place as bloodily as possible.
This topic is an affront to both The Man and The Son of the Man.

-Ts'aoist

Ssuma I sucks.
He was okay when he was an obedient slave of The Man.


-Ts'aoist

Join the Cult and receive the True and Holy Word of The Man.
Sima Hui
Cult of Ts'aoist
 
Posts: 1661
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:21 pm
Location: Serving the Most Sacred Disciple of the Man

Re: Russia invades Georgia

Unread postby English_Druid » Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:48 am

I agree with Koichi. Every state has the right to use force to quell separatist movements, if they didn't, then we might as well just give up on state borders now. Yes these people desire to be independent, and have been forced to live within an entity that isn’t there own, but that is true of millions of people around the world. We cannot draw up new borders to meet the wishes of every single ethnic group; conflicts emerge, new minorities are created, people are displaced. The state borders resulting from decolonisation, break-up of republics and world wars may be clumsy, but they provide the best basis for the current status-quo. Taking the political route to independence must be the best option.
What Russia is doing is abusing past precedents set by the West (which it opposed) to justify its own meddling: NATO's involvement in the Former Republic of Yugoslavia and the recognition of Kosovo's independence. That is why we are hearing all this talk of 'humanitarian intervention'. Even if such a doctrine exists, I doubt that the actions of the Georgian state (if they are eventually substantiated) would constitute justification for invading another state. A state should not intervene to assist the rebels in another state, that is a fundamental principle of international law.

Russia is being an dick about this, bullying weaker states as usual. She should be more responsible about this, especially given the brutality with which she has treated her own separatists (whom the Georgians could presumably lend military aid to now??)
But no one dies in the right place
Or in the right hour
And everyone dies sooner than his time
And before he reaches home.
User avatar
English_Druid
Scholar of Ying Guo
 
Posts: 1179
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2003 12:15 pm
Location: My soap box

Re: Russia invades Georgia

Unread postby Tan_Binrui » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:16 pm

English_Druid wrote:I agree with Koichi. Every state has the right to use force to quell separatist movements, if they didn't, then we might as well just give up on state borders now. Yes these people desire to be independent, and have been forced to live within an entity that isn’t there own, but that is true of millions of people around the world. We cannot draw up new borders to meet the wishes of every single ethnic group; conflicts emerge, new minorities are created, people are displaced. The state borders resulting from decolonisation, break-up of republics and world wars may be clumsy, but they provide the best basis for the current status-quo. Taking the political route to independence must be the best option.
What Russia is doing is abusing past precedents set by the West (which it opposed) to justify its own meddling: NATO's involvement in the Former Republic of Yugoslavia and the recognition of Kosovo's independence. That is why we are hearing all this talk of 'humanitarian intervention'. Even if such a doctrine exists, I doubt that the actions of the Georgian state (if they are eventually substantiated) would constitute justification for invading another state. A state should not intervene to assist the rebels in another state, that is a fundamental principle of international law.

Russia is being an dick about this, bullying weaker states as usual. She should be more responsible about this, especially given the brutality with which she has treated her own separatists (whom the Georgians could presumably lend military aid to now??)


Although the Theory, and ideal, is sound, your speaking out against "humanitarian intervention" does not reflect the world at large. There are almost no Seperatist, Rebel, or Independence movements that aren't funded or supported by a foreign power. America's Revolution was funded by France. Venezuelan rebels were funded by America. Partisans in Germany were funded by the Soviet Union. Anti-Communist Vietnamese forces were funded by France.

The ones that manage to do things without any help are few and far between, and most of them failed.

International Law does not supersede National Law. The South Ossetians are not Russian agents on the warpath with Georgia, they're an ethnic minority that stood up on their own to find their support in their northern neighbors. If Georgia could handle its de facto independant regions, then it would, and this would be a different argument. The problem here is that the South Ossetians have been ruling themselves for about 15 years. Georgian influence is completely gone. Despite International Recognition, it's an Independent State.

International Recognition is, in itself, a pretty full of crap ideal. For the longest time, the Republic of China was considered, on an International level, the leaders of China, despite only owning Taiwan. It took decades, and economic strength, for the International Community to finally recognize the People's Republic of China, who owned ALL of mainland China already, as the leaders of China.

What a pathetic situation. If people within a country rule themselves, and have the power to become separate, then they can become an Independent State. South Ossetia has decided to, but see their goal as reuniting with North Ossetia, which is already an Autonomous Republic of Russia.
"Because he has died, there is no more room for death in him." -- Lao Tzu
User avatar
Tan_Binrui
Langzhong
 
Posts: 464
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:42 am
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Russia invades Georgia

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:12 am

Sima Hui wrote:War continues: Russia's obviously wanting to punish Georgia for their insolence; it's not just about withdrawing from South Ossetia, the Bear wants to put Georgia back in its place as bloodily as possible.


Aaggh... damn it, this is what I was afraid of. Moscow is now in the business of getting one-up on Georgia and thumbing their collective noses at the West. Of course, it doesn't really help that we in the West have pretty much lost all credibility and moral high ground when it comes to things like not invading other sovereign nations. Now what we're singing to Russia sounds like 'do what we say, not what we do' - and it isn't a very convincing tune.

English_Druid wrote:I agree with Koichi. Every state has the right to use force to quell separatist movements, if they didn't, then we might as well just give up on state borders now. Yes these people desire to be independent, and have been forced to live within an entity that isn’t there own, but that is true of millions of people around the world. We cannot draw up new borders to meet the wishes of every single ethnic group; conflicts emerge, new minorities are created, people are displaced. The state borders resulting from decolonisation, break-up of republics and world wars may be clumsy, but they provide the best basis for the current status-quo. Taking the political route to independence must be the best option.


The reason separatist movements like those in Georgia (or Spain, or China) exist is that they have been socially or economically marginalised and left unrecognised by the 'legitimate' governments that ought to be representing them. People generally do take the political route to social and economic justice and free exercise of power when they have access to it, but in this case, maintaining the 'current status-quo' simply isn't enough (though as a general rule, I'm in favour of working within established governments to achieve social and economic justice).

English_Druid wrote:What Russia is doing is abusing past precedents set by the West (which it opposed) to justify its own meddling: NATO's involvement in the Former Republic of Yugoslavia and the recognition of Kosovo's independence. That is why we are hearing all this talk of 'humanitarian intervention'. Even if such a doctrine exists, I doubt that the actions of the Georgian state (if they are eventually substantiated) would constitute justification for invading another state.


They don't. But that doesn't excuse the actions that Georgia has undertaken. There should have been some UN action over this, but I think you're right that Russia is being cynical about this, and following the precedents that we set in Kossovo and, more recently, Iraq with their unilateral 'humanitarian intervention'.
Some more blood, Chekov. The needle won't hurt, Chekov. Take off your shirt, Chekov. Roll over, Chekov. Breathe deeply, Chekov. Blood sample, Chekov! Marrow sample, Chekov! Skin sample, Chekov! If I live long enough... I'm going to run out of samples.
User avatar
WeiWenDi
Hedgehog Emperor
 
Posts: 3849
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:09 am
Location: L'Étoile du Nord

Re: Russia invades Georgia

Unread postby English_Druid » Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:21 pm

I don't disagree with anything that’s been said, and I appreciate that South Ossetia bears all the hallmarks of a de facto state, but it is up to the people themselves to win their own independence, not for another state to win it for them. John Stuart Mill made this argument over a hundred years ago - A Few Words on Non-Intervention. I appreciate that the issue gets more complex, especially when we consider that the U.S. has been training Georgian troops, but in my mind all Russia has done is discredit the separatists legitimacy and severely weakened their chances of future recognition; this looks like an attempted annexation of another states territory.

If people within a country rule themselves, and have the power to become separate, then they can become an Independent State.


I totally agree, unfortunately it now appears to the world that they haven’t the power to become separate, because the Russians - not the South Ossetians - repelled the Georgian forces.
But no one dies in the right place
Or in the right hour
And everyone dies sooner than his time
And before he reaches home.
User avatar
English_Druid
Scholar of Ying Guo
 
Posts: 1179
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2003 12:15 pm
Location: My soap box

PreviousNext

Return to Current Affairs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved