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Re: War on Scientology

Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:24 am
by Dong Zhou
Judging my experiences, Aygor's argument could be used to shut down the Catholic Church in England. Which, while tempting, wouldn't sit comfortable with me (ignoring my Catholic faith) and so I wouldn't be happy seeing Scientology made illegal.

Re: War on Scientology

Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:02 pm
by Aygor
Dong Zhou wrote:Judging my experiences, Aygor's argument could be used to shut down the Catholic Church in England.

It surprises me that it could actually, why do you think so?

Also, if I may ask, why tempting? honest curiosity

Re: War on Scientology

Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:19 pm
by Dong Zhou
If one is banning a religion because it exploits it's followers for cash, labour and so on then my experiences with that church, more then once, would suggest it would also need to go. Your lucky if the priest offers so much as confession let alone anything else but it wants your money, money money money money and did I mention? MONEY! In rare cases, labour but they prefer money generally. The parishes and so on I have been in show little concern, beyond the mandated collections, for the poor or the needy or to seek out those that need help.

I don't know if showing contempt for the officers of the law gives bonus points towards being kicked out?

Also, if I may ask, why tempting? honest curiosity


Because I'm a vindictive sort who needs to be better at forgiving what they did.

Re: War on Scientology

Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:39 pm
by Jordan
I would argue that the leap of faith required by other religions is not functional to abuse.


I wouldn't though. Plenty of other religious institutions solicit their adherents for cash. Here in Southern California, my experience has been that many religious institutions are largely corporatized. In addition, I've heard stories about some rather dubious cultish organizations here from a wide range of religions (protestant to buddhist). I wish I could find the name of one specific Buddhist one I heard of, but I'm having trouble at the moment. I learned about it in an East Asian History class I took in college from a professor who had experience dealing with them and quickly realized that they were a super sketchy cult who were doing many of the things Scientology is infamous for. He worked for them because they paid him very well, provided he sell his soul and morals. :lol:

A profit oriented organization which uses falsities to misdirect and exploit acolytes, is in my opinion a deceit and as a deceit should be viewed and dealed with.


It's a thin line though. Dong Zhou has already explained his reasons for doubting the Catholic Church in the UK. It's very hard to determine what counts as misdirecting and exploiting rather than simply...uh...entreating? I dunno what the right word to use in this case is, but plenty of other religions are manipulative in some way that is still perfectly legal. :)


I am talking about juridical neutrality towards a fraud due to the religion label rather than the obvious right of everyone to criticize what they do not like.


If they are breaking fraud laws, I agree that they are breaking fraud laws regardless of their status as a religion or anything else. However, as my knowledge of fraud laws is nonexistent and my legal knowledge poor in general, I cannot comment further on this issue.

I accept, obviously, the freedom of belief, I do not accept the indoctrination of others whose purpose is their exploitation.


Another very thin line.

Re: War on Scientology

Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:00 am
by Aygor
Jordan wrote:
I would argue that the leap of faith required by other religions is not functional to abuse.

I wouldn't though.[...]

I get your and Dong Zhou's objection, that isn't what I am arguing though.
The main religions are not organizations founded to profit through their disciples, if they could on whichever level be argued to do so the blame is on the personnel who betrays the principles he is supposed to represent.

The point stands for organizations which knowingly feed false information to lucrate at the expenses of who falls for it.

Jordan wrote:It's a thin line though.
Another very thin line.

Thin but definite lines nonetheless.

Re: War on Scientology

Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:05 am
by Sun Fin
My worry would be that the precedent set to challenge the Church of Scientology could then be used against any religion the state disagrees with.

Re: War on Scientology

Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:39 pm
by Dong Zhou
The main religions are not organizations founded to profit through their disciples, if they could on whichever level be argued to do so the blame is on the personnel who betrays the principles he is supposed to represent.


Yet I saw this things supported at higher levels as well including defiance of the police, bad attitudes towards woman, stuff the poor and so on.

The point stands for organizations which knowingly feed false information to lucrate at the expenses of who falls for it.


So the Catholic Church in England?

Re: War on Scientology

Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:19 pm
by Aygor
Dong Zhou wrote:
The main religions are not organizations founded to profit through their disciples, if they could on whichever level be argued to do so the blame is on the personnel who betrays the principles he is supposed to represent.

Yet I saw this things supported at higher levels as well including defiance of the police, bad attitudes towards woman, stuff the poor and so on.

If the pope himself spread lies as a mean of profit, it would mean that the people who lead that organization are corrupted and in defiance of it's purpose, it would not mean that the purpose of that organization is profit through guillability.

Dong Zhou wrote:
The point stands for organizations which knowingly feed false information to lucrate at the expenses of who falls for it.

So the Catholic Church in England?

Which part of the dogma proposed by the catholic church in england is oriented to lucrate at the expenses of the faithful?

Re: War on Scientology

Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:54 pm
by Dong Zhou
It seems like religion fleecing people and ignoring the law is ok as long as one doesn't write it down as dogma? Just do it in practise but not in the texts?

If Scientology just rewrote it's texts to suit which leader dislikes it and then it will be ok to do what it is doing anyway?

Thinking about it, I'm not sure how relevant the Pope is to the Catholic Church in England (in practise) so would the Cardinal be the main man for how this law would work? Ditto for other religions, would national leaders be the figures to keep an eye on rather then overall head?

Re: War on Scientology

Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:27 pm
by Aygor
Dong Zhou wrote:It seems like religion fleecing people and ignoring the law is ok as long as one doesn't write it down as dogma? Just do it in practise but not in the texts?

It just is a different issue.
I am referring to the difference between a mafia organization and a corrupted government, the difference between an organization which is there to profit through harm and another which is there for good reasons but whose power is misused by unjust people.
I am not trying to make a comparison, just to clarify what I mean.

Dong Zhou wrote:would national leaders be the figures to keep an eye on rather then overall head?

I personally think that judging an organization one should consider it's constitutive purpose and structure rather than the personnel (even the head personnel) contingently running it.