Neo-nazism in Europe

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Your Opinion on Neo-Nazi/Extremist Movements?

They are a blight on humanity and must be eradicated.
6
29%
They have a right to assemble just like all others.
15
71%
 
Total votes : 21

Neo-nazism in Europe

Unread postby Koichi » Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:49 am

Inspired by Call of Duty 4, I embarked on a bit of research on Neo-nazism and other extremist movements in Europe. The results surprised me, in not a happy way. Here's one page among many, about Russian extremists:

http://www.interethnic.org/EngNews/220805_2.html

Although particularly virulent in Russia, Neo-nazis are present, not only in Germany and Austria, but France, Belgium, Greece, and much of Eastern Europe. The report I cited above estimates membership in extremist movements to be in the tens of thousands. Not only do these movements have large numbers, racially-motivated terrorism and other violent acts are becoming widespread. Common victims include 'dark' peoples from the Caucasus region, Asiatics, and, of course, Jews.

This was depressing for me to learn. It's an old saying that "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." It looks like we have plenty to do the honors for us.
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Unread postby Tigger of Kai » Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:14 am

Don't forget Canada! Friends from the East Coast tell me quite matter-of-factly that white-supremacist skinhead gangs are not uncommon in high schools out that way. The infamous Ernst Zundel also felt quite at home here.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:29 am

Tigger of Kai wrote:Don't forget Canada! Friends from the East Coast tell me quite matter-of-factly that white-supremacist skinhead gangs are not uncommon in high schools out that way. The infamous Ernst Zundel also felt quite at home here.


Don't forget every country that is predominately white.
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:56 am

I voted option one and was flabbergasted to see that we have two votes for option two.

I respect people's right to their own thoughts and freedom of speech, but I also respect my own freedoms and those of others.

That's why I cant condone people who would see other sections of society repressed for their own gain. It's unfair and unjust, so Nazism should just die out, and those who condone it should be stopped.
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Unread postby Shikanosuke » Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:52 pm

They are a blight and disgusting, but they have right of assembly where I live. As long as it stays within the confines of the law.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:56 pm

Shi Tong wrote:I voted option one and was flabbergasted to see that we have two votes for option two.

I respect people's right to their own thoughts and freedom of speech, but I also respect my own freedoms and those of others.

That's why I cant condone people who would see other sections of society repressed for their own gain. It's unfair and unjust, so Nazism should just die out, and those who condone it should be stopped.


Why stop there? Why not suppress all with differing opinions?

"I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
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Unread postby Koichi » Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:56 pm

Shi Tong wrote:I voted option one and was flabbergasted to see that we have two votes for option two.



That's because SoSZ won't let me put up a poll unless I have at least two options. :wink:

I put one up to leave the thread open to discussion about freedom of speech. I don't know how the laws are like in Europe (and I'm not about to assume they're anywhere the same from Portugal to Russia) but here in the US, the general rule is that, among other categories, speech that presents a clear and present danger will not be protected. The classic example is shouting 'Fire' in a crowded theater but cases of hate speech, such as by the KKK, have frequented the US Supreme Court.

The great hurdle in this field of law has always been that 'clear and present danger' test. Are decades of sporadic violence by KKK members sufficient to satisfy the clear and present requirement to condemn an act of speech as illegal? I don't consider this an easy question to answer.

However, the difference between the US and Europe now is that, as bad as the KKK were about a hundred years ago, today they are largely defunct. Once in the millions, there are only a few thousand members left and their activities are confined to rallies and protests. Neo-nazi groups, on the other hand, seem to be a relatively new phenomena in Europe. Their membership is large (Russian National Unity boasted 100,000 members at their peak), receive paramilitary training (!), and acts of violence have been widespread.

Governments could, of course, ban these movements and several did. If I remember correctly, Germany banned Neo-nazism and Russia banned the RNU. However, doing so drives these movements underground. I suspect that a great reason the Neo-nazis are so numerous and so violent is for a similar reason that people use cocaine. It is illegal so young people are doing it to rebel. It seems that European freedom of speech will be put to the test.

In any case, I actually didn't intend to engage in a protracted discussion of law, really just wanted some input from European members as to how bad Neo-nazis really are over there. Personally, I've been planning to visit parts of Eastern Europe for a while, all my friends who went there absolutely loved it, and would hate for the experience to be ruined by a group of thugs.
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Unread postby TsaoTsao » Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:31 am

Tigger of Kai wrote:Don't forget Canada! Friends from the East Coast tell me quite matter-of-factly that white-supremacist skinhead gangs are not uncommon in high schools out that way. The infamous Ernst Zundel also felt quite at home here.


Zundel, isn't the guy in Germany now? Did they give a verdict yet or his sentence?

Yeah I hear the BC area is a safe haven for Neo Nazi groups like the Vinland Vikings.

I personally find any sort of racism reprehensible, but they have a right to believe what they want and say what they want as long as they don't resort to violence.
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:34 am

Why stop there? Why not suppress all with differing opinions?

"I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it."


Oooh, how comforting and rosy.

Well, in my opinion, if, as Koichi said below, this kind of speech and gathering is something which will gather such a momentum of hatred towards other groups, then I think it should be outlawed.

I actually agree with free speech and defend the right of people to say anything, but in confined areas of such hatred, it's a really dangerous thing, which could lead to deaths.

If we believe that freedom of speech is stronger and better than the right to say what you like, then maybe we shouldn't have gone to war with Germany over it's racist Nazism which nearly eradicated the Jews, after all, who are we to interfere with freedom of speech?

Governments could, of course, ban these movements and several did.


I agree with this.

Lets not get carried away here.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean the right to stir up hatred and make people kill, this is the ensightment to violence which makes terrorists.

We also have groups like the BNP and UKIP in the UK, and though I hate them with a passion, at least they're the organised and non violent wing of something I think is plain fascist. So they have the right to speak and to be elected, this is the correct path for something which I dont agree with IMO, but to have random groups of hating people getting together to egg each other on to kill is just unacceptable, IMO.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:16 am

Shi Tong wrote:If we believe that freedom of speech is stronger and better than the right to say what you like, then maybe we shouldn't have gone to war with Germany over it's racist Nazism which nearly eradicated the Jews, after all, who are we to interfere with freedom of speech?


Shooting and gassing = freedom of speech now?
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