Tiananmen Square Massacre commemoration thread

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Re: Tiananmen Square Massacre commemoration thread

Unread postby agga » Sat Aug 15, 2009 2:07 am

James wrote:I hope the Chinese continue to find new and innovative ways around the firewall. I really like that idea of locally distributed software, as that is something they would have a hard time handling and addressing. I wonder how good an idea the general population of China has of the extent to which their information is being controlled.


http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009 ... 573401.htm

this link may just be temporary, as stories at CD shift over time; but, two weird things about this one. first, there's no chinese govt response within, at all; and two, it contains several chinese statements as to the uselessness and wrongness of the govt control program! with no response or criticism within the article! other chinese papers might contain such articles, but not the CD. i can't find a corresponding article on the chinese language site, but this might be a sign of something...
造反有理!
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Re: Tiananmen Square Massacre commemoration thread

Unread postby Lady Wu » Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:28 pm

Hahahaha!

As one of the comments wrote: "Who bought China Daily?"
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Re: Tiananmen Square Massacre commemoration thread

Unread postby Lady Wu » Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:21 am

Seasonal bump.

Reading through the previous posts in this thread, I can't believe I had so many words to say back then.

It's been 22 years. I don't know what to say anymore, except that the same questions remain:

- Why is there still no official account for those who died in the incident?

- Why are people still having their speech and movement restricted on account of this?

- Why are political dissidents still being harassed and disappeared?

In other news, the Chinese police approached one victim's family to discuss monetary settlement.
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Re: Tiananmen Square Massacre commemoration thread

Unread postby SunXia » Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:48 am

I was recently looking into this incident myself since the other day was the anniversary of the day tof the Tank Man!!

But seriously, it is ridiculous that some nations are still like this and suppression of such levels still goes on without anyone willing to take a stand and say, "They were killed because A, B and C" instead of treating the incident like Lord Voldemort, not to be spoken about at all!! Too many people witnessed the incident worldwode for them to deny it happened and try to hope that it'll be forgotten!! Those people need justice and a voice!!
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Re: Tiananmen Square Massacre commemoration thread

Unread postby Tigger of Kai » Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:31 am

Really made my day to see Tiananmen as a front-page story in this morning's Toronto Star. They even used the word "massacre". No question the story has more "legs" this year, given the regime's persecutions of Ai Weiwei and this year's Nobel Peace Prize winner Liu Xiaobo. As I do every June 4, I took a few minutes yesterday to review some contemporary coverage of the event.
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Re: Tiananmen Square Massacre commemoration thread

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:22 am

SunXia wrote:I was recently looking into this incident myself since the other day was the anniversary of the day tof the Tank Man!!

But seriously, it is ridiculous that some nations are still like this and suppression of such levels still goes on without anyone willing to take a stand and say, "They were killed because A, B and C" instead of treating the incident like Lord Voldemort, not to be spoken about at all!! Too many people witnessed the incident worldwode for them to deny it happened and try to hope that it'll be forgotten!! Those people need justice and a voice!!


The problem is, there's way too much political posturing and distortion of fact around the victims of the Tian'anmen protests for any of the criticisms to hold water. According to Dr Wang Hui (who was a participant in the demonstrations), what the protestors were actually protesting was the lack of political openness surrounding China's reform and opening; and a critical mass of them were calling for a scaling back of market reforms before the government could democratise and ensure a basic economic safety net for people who didn't have the 关系 in Deng's government that China's new capitalists had. And yet, we somehow tie them into this triumphalist liberal 'end of history' narrative that completely overrides their voice and disrespects what they wanted to achieve (while all the while our government cheered on a continuing economic liberalisation and state repression, which the current government in China is only beginning to unravel by degrees). Hence:

Tigger of Kai wrote:Really made my day to see Tiananmen as a front-page story in this morning's Toronto Star. They even used the word "massacre". No question the story has more "legs" this year, given the regime's persecutions of Ai Weiwei and this year's Nobel Peace Prize winner Liu Xiaobo. As I do every June 4, I took a few minutes yesterday to review some contemporary coverage of the event.


I kind of question what good media coverage of the event will do, aside from stirring up some mealy-mouthed sentiment from various corners of the liberal commentariat. Let's face it, it isn't going to stop Americans from buying Chinese goods, and it isn't going to put any political pressure on China that they won't be able to easily brush off. The Norwegians already kind of discredited the Peace Prize by awarding it to our president before he had even a chance to pursue peace (a chance which he has now squandered in multiple ways), and now they've discredited it further by awarding it to a sycophantic warmongering poseur like Liu Xiaobo; so that useless bauble has quite limited traction as a vehicle of geopolitical suasion even in the West.

But the Western governments and media are pretty much to a one in bed with Chinese industrial, development and commercial interests; the most they're capable of is a few symbolic wrist-slaps (if even that). If anything is going to change China in a better, more democratic direction, it ain't going to come from them or from their sycophants.
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Re: Tiananmen Square Massacre commemoration thread

Unread postby SunXia » Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:52 pm

To be honest I don't know enough of what they were protesting for to comment in that regard!! My main concern in regards to suppression is in regards to how the Government have treated the massacre since!! At the end of the day these people were butchered in cold blood, tanks against humans, it doesn't take a risk assessor to know the outcome in that bout!! Yet people aren't allowed to take about it and no answers have ever been given as to why these people were eliminated in such a fashion when it wasn't that long ago and people affected by the incident have been given no justice whatsoever for their suffering!!
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Re: Tiananmen Square Massacre commemoration thread

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:21 pm

SunXia wrote:To be honest I don't know enough of what they were protesting for to comment in that regard!! My main concern in regards to suppression is in regards to how the Government have treated the massacre since!! At the end of the day these people were butchered in cold blood, tanks against humans, it doesn't take a risk assessor to know the outcome in that bout!! Yet people aren't allowed to take about it and no answers have ever been given as to why these people were eliminated in such a fashion when it wasn't that long ago and people affected by the incident have been given no justice whatsoever for their suffering!!


What really is a shame is the suppression of information, that's true. And the government is culpable in that, there's no doubt in my mind about that. My point was that Western governments and media don't do the truth, or the victims of 1989, any favours when they basically turn the issue into a geopolitical football for self-serving reasons. (I think China is completely right to point out that they do do this, but somehow the wrong lessons are always drawn from this observation.) Yes, what was done in 1989 was horrible and should be brought fully to light, but no, it does not mean that our own system is superior and should be adopted without question (as the advocates of Charter 08 wanted). What I'd like to see is China changing from within along the political and economic lines hinted at by Dr Wang Hui and Dr Cui Zhiyuan, and I think that it is undertaking the difficult labour of changing course in the right direction; economically, at any rate.
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Re: Tiananmen Square Massacre commemoration thread

Unread postby Lady Wu » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:47 pm

WWD put it much better than I ever could. I agree that the Western spin is somewhat counterproductive, and really just creating a rally point for those who resent "foreign imperialists meddling with China's domestic affairs". I personally find the political agenda behind some of those human rights accusations despicable.

The issue/incident/whatever has spiralled into various different directions, but at the heart of it it's still about transparency in the government, and justice for the dead, the exiled, and their families. Whether or not Liu Xiaobo deserved the Peace Prize, the fact remains that he is incarcerated simply for being a dissident, and there is no just and open process in his sentence. And what about that Tiananmen mother who was not allowed to go visit her child's grave on June 4? Or others that are denied their basic freedoms just because they were related to someone directly involved with the incident? Where is justice? The growing economy has left a huge proportion of the population in the dust with no safety net, and corruption is still killing people (contaminated food products, buildings not built to code, etc.) by the thousands. Where is justice?

The way I see it, the Tiananmen incident is a festering wound that is not allowed to heal. Many people would just like to see some closure and then move on. The longer the CCP puts off resolving this issue and providing healing to the victims, the more the incident is going to get entangled with other issues.

At least what's heartening is that the number of people participating in the annual candlelight vigil in Hong Kong has increased (150,000 according to organizers, 77,000 according to the police; in the years before 2009 it was closer to 50,000), and has significantly more young people and Mainlanders. There were even over 60 high school students who camped out at Victoria Park to reenact the events back in 1989. The people will remember.
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Re: Tiananmen Square Massacre commemoration thread

Unread postby SunXia » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:25 pm

Well yeah I agree with eveything you said there Lady Wu!! The people deserve justice and closure on the issue and a right to mourn the loss tha this episode has resulted in!! I don't think the international bodies should be using this against China in order to appear honorable or anything, this is a Chinese issue that still needs to be resolved so the country can heal!!
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