The Historical Hua Mulan

Discuss historical events and information concerning any culture, time, or location in our world (or even the frontier beyond).

Unread postby Seven at One Stroke » Sat Mar 20, 2004 3:16 am

Lady Zhuge wrote:
SesshomaruTenseiga wrote:Oh, I also like whatever dynasty Mulan was in. :D :lol:


That would be the Sui dynasty.

Are you sure that it is the Sui dynasty? In the poem it is mentioned that 'Ke Han ordered a draft', which isn't likely the way to address a Han emperor?
Moderation in pursuit of actual work is no vice.
User avatar
Seven at One Stroke
Sei's Slave
 
Posts: 1852
Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2002 4:16 am

Unread postby Lu Wei » Sat Mar 20, 2004 3:38 am

Maybe it was written in the Sui?
Lu Wei
Langzhong
 
Posts: 571
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 12:07 am
Location: The great state of Tennessee

Unread postby Koichi » Sat Mar 20, 2004 3:51 pm

Are you sure that it is the Sui dynasty? In the poem it is mentioned that 'Ke Han ordered a draft', which isn't likely the way to address a Han emperor?


I'm quite sure Mulan lived during the Han dynasty. She went to fight against the Huns who warred with the Han during the reign of Wudi. The Han forces drove the horsemen back with huge losses.
User avatar
Koichi
Scholar of Shen Zhou
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1226
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:49 am
Location: NYC

Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:49 pm

Seven at One Stroke wrote:Are you sure that it is the Sui dynasty? In the poem it is mentioned that 'Ke Han ordered a draft', which isn't likely the way to address a Han emperor?


What poem are you referring to and when was it written? According to this article, the historical Hua Mulan lived during the Sui dynasty. It seems that the Huns had been enemies long before Wudi's reign.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein

¡°ÈËÉú²»¿ÉÄÜÄÇôƽµ££¬ ÄÇôÏ뵱Ȼ£» ²»¿ÉÓÀÔ¶ÔÚÏÊ»¨¶È¹ý¡£ ÕýÈçÄǾäÀÏ»°£º ¡®ÈýÊ®ÄêºÓ¶«£¬ ÈýÊ®ÄêºÓÎ÷¡£¡¯¡±

- ÌƹúÇ¿
User avatar
Lady Zhuge
Kongming's One and Only
 
Posts: 1178
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 3:29 pm
Location: With Kongming

Unread postby Seven at One Stroke » Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:40 pm

Lady Zhuge wrote:What poem are you referring to and when was it written?


木 蘭 辭


唧唧復唧唧,木蘭當戶織。
不聞機杼聲,唯聞女嘆息。
問女何所思?問女何所憶?
女亦無所思,女亦無所憶。
昨夜見軍帖,可汗大點兵,
軍書十二卷,卷卷有爺名。
阿爺無大兒,木蘭無長兄,
愿為市鞍馬,從此替爺征。

東市買駿馬,西市買鞍韉,
南市買轡頭,北市買長鞭。
朝辭爺娘去,暮宿黃河邊。
不聞爺娘喚女聲,但聞黃河流水鳴濺濺。
旦辭黃河去,暮至黑山頭。
不聞爺娘喚女聲,但聞燕山胡騎聲啾啾。

萬里赴戎機,關山度若飛。
朔氣傳金柝,寒光照鐵衣。
將軍百戰死,壯士十年歸。

歸來見天子,天子坐明堂。
策勛十二轉,賞賜百千強。
可汗問所欲,“木蘭不用尚書郎,
愿借明駝千里足,送兒還故鄉。”

爺娘聞女來,出郭相扶將。
阿姊聞妹來,當戶理紅妝。
小弟聞姊來,磨刀霍霍向豬羊。
開我東閣門,坐我西閣床。
脫我戰時袍,著我舊時裳。
當窗理云鬢,對鏡貼花黃。
出門看火伴,火伴皆驚惶。
同行十二年,不知木蘭是女郎。

“雄兔腳扑朔,雌兔眼迷離﹔
兩兔傍地走,安能辨我是雄雌!”

Well, it does seem that there is a lot of confusion as to which era Mulan lived in. I've had some sources that even put her as far back as the Han dynasty. It seems to me that this particular song was written sometime in the post-Jin pre-Sui era (Wu Chao).
Moderation in pursuit of actual work is no vice.
User avatar
Seven at One Stroke
Sei's Slave
 
Posts: 1852
Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2002 4:16 am

Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:52 pm

Seven at One Stroke wrote:Well, it does seem that there is a lot of confusion as to which era Mulan lived in. I've had some sources that even put her as far back as the Han dynasty. It seems to me that this particular song was written sometime in the post-Jin pre-Sui era (Wu Chao).


Thanks for the poem. That's very interesting. I suppose that the origin and existence of the real Mulan can be classified as a true historical mystery.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein

¡°ÈËÉú²»¿ÉÄÜÄÇôƽµ££¬ ÄÇôÏ뵱Ȼ£» ²»¿ÉÓÀÔ¶ÔÚÏÊ»¨¶È¹ý¡£ ÕýÈçÄǾäÀÏ»°£º ¡®ÈýÊ®ÄêºÓ¶«£¬ ÈýÊ®ÄêºÓÎ÷¡£¡¯¡±

- ÌƹúÇ¿
User avatar
Lady Zhuge
Kongming's One and Only
 
Posts: 1178
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 3:29 pm
Location: With Kongming

Unread postby Shadowlink » Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:32 am

i thought mulan live in the sima dynasty "jin" it said so in the tv
User avatar
Shadowlink
Langzhong
 
Posts: 4882
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2002 5:57 pm

Unread postby Kül Tigin » Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:38 pm

I thought Hua Mulan lived during either the Late Han, Jin or Nan-Bei Chao periods; www.uglychinese.org (correct url?) claims that she was probably a Tuoba Xianbei.
Admin of SHF
Kül Tigin
Khaghan of the Türüks
 
Posts: 789
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2002 4:00 pm
Location: Ötüken, Sacred Center of Tujue / Ankara, Türkiye

Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:22 pm

I've asked around some more and the confusion seems to be growing. People have placed her as having existed in practically every single dynasty from Jin to before Tang. Here's another site that places her in the Sui dynasty: http://www.chinavista.com/travel/mulan/part1.html. However, I noticed that this site says she hung herself whereas the previous site said she killed herself with a sword. Hmm. :?

Edit: I've split the thread so as not to get too off-track from the original topic.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein

¡°ÈËÉú²»¿ÉÄÜÄÇôƽµ££¬ ÄÇôÏ뵱Ȼ£» ²»¿ÉÓÀÔ¶ÔÚÏÊ»¨¶È¹ý¡£ ÕýÈçÄǾäÀÏ»°£º ¡®ÈýÊ®ÄêºÓ¶«£¬ ÈýÊ®ÄêºÓÎ÷¡£¡¯¡±

- ÌƹúÇ¿
User avatar
Lady Zhuge
Kongming's One and Only
 
Posts: 1178
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 3:29 pm
Location: With Kongming

Unread postby Lady Wu » Tue Mar 23, 2004 3:10 am

This is from History of Chinese Literature (1986) edited by You Guo'en, Wang Qi, Xiao Difei, Ji Zhenhuai, and Fei Zhengang (中國文學史:游囯恩、王起、蕭滌非、季鎭淮、費振剛主編):

Just like "The Peacock flies east and south", "Ballad of Mulan" also raises a question regarding the time period in which it was composed. Views on this issue differ even more than in the case of "The Peacock": every dynast from Wei, Jin, Qi, Liang, Sui, and Tang has been proposed. Some have even hypothesized the author to be Cao Zhi or Wei Yuanfu. At this time, we can be certain that it is a folk song from the Northern Dynasties. Shi Zhi Jiang from the Chen dynasty (557-589) recorded this poem in his "Collection of Songs Past and Present", which is solid proof that the poem cannot have been composed after the Chen. Wars were frequent in the Northern Dynasties, and martial prowess and exploits were greatly praised. This poem directly reflects that social environment. Furthermore, the emperor in the poem is referred to as ke han ("Khan"), and the expedition starts off in the north-- these all support the idea that the poem can only be a product of the Northern Dynasties. It was probably written after the Northern Wei (386-534) moved its capital to Luoyang, and before splitting into the Eastern and Western Wei (534~535). During its transmission, it could have been edited by the literati of the Sui and Tang, leading to its "containing bits of Tang lyricism", such as the six lines from 萬里赴戎機. However, looking at the poem as a whole, we see that it still keeps the characteristic of a Northern Dynasties' folk song.


Liu Dajie's History of the Development of Chinese Literature (1992) (劉大杰 :中國文學發展史) also dates "Ballad of Mulan" to the Northern Dynasties:

The time of composition of "Ballad of Mulan" has been discussed since long ago. 後村詩話、藝苑卮言 both contain hypotheses that it was created during the Tang dynasty. Even recent scholars have supported the Tang hypothesis. The reasons they give are the following three:

1. In the Collection of Yuefu Poems, it is written that Wei Yuanfu of the Tang wrote a imitation of the "Ballad of Mulan". The annotations say that "According to the lyrics, there was a song called "Mulan", but none knows when it was written". Later scholars thus hypothesized that the original "Mulan" was also written by Wei Yuanfu.

2. The line 策勲十二轉 refers to the Tang official system, and 明駝 refers to the courier system of the Tang.

3. The four lines following 萬里赴戎機 seems to be the style of the Tang.

In reality, these reasons cannot disprove that "Ballad of Mulan" was a composition of the Northern Dynasties. When we read the original side-by-side with Wei's imitation, we can see that there are definitive differences in the flavour of the two. The original is rich in folk elements: neither of the simple and rustic wordings nor the innocent and lively descriptions can be imitated by a literary person. In comparison, the imitated piece is full of usage of literary conventions and elaborations. We can thus easily tell that the two are written by different authors. Regarding the mention of Tang systems as well as the mixing in of Tang literary style, that is only a sign that the poem was edited and modified by later writers, and not a proof for the Tang authorship hypothesis. The first six lines of the original "Mulan" is almost identical to the six lines in "Song of Breaking a Willow Branch", starting with 敕敕何力力, which is proof that "Ballad of Mulan" came from the peasant class. A writer of later times would never have plagarized it thus.
User avatar
Lady Wu
Melty the Snowman
Melty the Snowman
 
Posts: 12645
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 2:35 am

Next

Return to World History Deliberation

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved

 
cron