Tokugawa Ieyasu= Sima Yi of the Sengoku Jidai?

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Re: Tokugawa Ieyasu= Sima Yi of the Sengoku Jidai?

Unread postby Tiger of Kai » Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:16 pm

fukarming wrote:I think I don't consider Ieyasu very highly because he is always paired with Nobunaga and hideyoshi, as the "winner" in Sengoku Jidai. Nobunaga is called "the one who change medieval Japan" which is fitting due to his amazing expansion and his revolutionary mindset. Hideyoshi is called "the peasant who rised to the top", which explains itself. It is amazing if it happens in modern day. It is even more amazing to happen in medieval Japan where class are separated clearly. Ieyasu is called "the ultimate winner in Sengoku Jidai" since he establish Tokugawa Shogun and his family ruled almost 300 years. However, I cannot find how he is different from other "great Daimyo" in sengoku Jidai. All the great ones unify their lands and expand their territories while winning battles. In short, I don't see the "extra" stuff that qualify Ieyasu to be a whole level above Mori Motonari, Takeda Shingen or Uesugi Kenshin. I wouldn't disagree if you say he is slightly better than them, but I really couldn't see Ieyasu to be on a whole different level.


It is very amazing to think about what Hideyoshi was able to accomplish, i.e. rising from a peasant. However, the different classes were not strictly separated clearly. If they were, his story would be impossible. It was Hideyoshi who made the class structure so rigid once he came to power. His Separation Edict in 1591 is what made the clear designation between groups even clearer.

Also, I agree that nothing really separates Ieyasu from other great daimyo. He was extremely patient and ruled pragmatically. He positioned himself just right and waited for the perfect opportunity to seize power. Perhaps the one area that Ieyasu did clearly excel as opposed to his contemporaries was the usage of "bedroom politics." He realized the importance of establishing some sort of familial bond with other powerful families and he used this tactic masterfully.

I think it would be more apt to call Ieyasu the "Survivor" of the Sengoku Jidai, as opposed to the "Winner." :D
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Re: Tokugawa Ieyasu= Sima Yi of the Sengoku Jidai?

Unread postby dymlos timbre » Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:19 pm

i stil lregard him a winner. the fact remains that he could have very well just stayed put and not taken the land from hideyori but he did! and defeated mitsunari and his coalition to! he earned his win though he did not work as hard as nobunaga he still had obstacles to overcome pretty big ones at that.
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Re: Tokugawa Ieyasu= Sima Yi of the Sengoku Jidai?

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:41 pm

My view of Tokugawa Ieyasu is that he was both a winner and a circumstantialist (ok I made up that word :wink: )

He basically outlasted the other daimyos of his era. That is still being a 'winner' in my opinion. Oda Nobunaga met his fate at Honnoji and Toyotomi Hideyoshi couldn't find enough life to continue on. Tokugawa pretty much did what any smart leader would do, he waited until the time was ripe for him to take action and he capitalized on Nobunaga's and Hideyoshi's success. Sounds a bit like what Sima Yi accomplished - to some extent.

And by circumstance, he was able to be thrusted into the position where the Battle at Sekigahara would be the gateway to the culmination of the begin of the Tokugawa Shogunate.
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Re: Tokugawa Ieyasu= Sima Yi of the Sengoku Jidai?

Unread postby Tiger of Kai » Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:10 pm

Zhuanyong wrote:He basically outlasted the other daimyos of his era.


Would that not fit the definition of a survivor?
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Re: Tokugawa Ieyasu= Sima Yi of the Sengoku Jidai?

Unread postby Elitemsh » Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:35 pm

One thing i do like about Tokugawa is how he rightfully objected to Tokichiro's ridiculous war against Korea. I think Tokichiro wanted to invade China but Korea was in his way? Tokichiro united the land but instead of giving the Japanese people deserved peace, he starts another war. I don't see the good in that. Ieyasu was a much better ruler in that respect.
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Re: Tokugawa Ieyasu= Sima Yi of the Sengoku Jidai?

Unread postby Ranbir » Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:16 am

Ergo he won.

Unless the definition of winner has changed all of a sudden.
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Re: Tokugawa Ieyasu= Sima Yi of the Sengoku Jidai?

Unread postby Jordan » Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:47 am

As a general, Tokugawa Ieyasu frankly had an excellent record. I kind of agree that his conquest of the land was not as difficult as Nobunaga's or Hideyoshi's. He was definitely working off of the seeds that Hideyoshi had sown. On the other hand, his clan also certainly survived many trials, and Ieyasu himself was great as a leader and great at dealing with other people. So disregarding the comparison of Ieyasu to Nobunaga or Hideyoshi, I think Ieyasu certainly deserved the unification he sought after. And his Shogunate was one of the most respectable, if not the best, in Japanese history.

What I think is interesting, though, is that I believe Hideyoshi actually undermined his own regency in ways. He somehow managed to kill several supporters of his regime and alienate others by killing their associates. He also aroused the ire of several clans in the Northeast such as the Mogami and Date. And the Korean War that he waged was more devastating to the West where more of his supporters could be found. A lot of blame is hurled at Ishida Mitsunari for the Toyotomi's downfall but I really feel like Hideyoshi himself is largely to blame.
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Re: Tokugawa Ieyasu= Sima Yi of the Sengoku Jidai?

Unread postby Tiger of Kai » Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:28 pm

SlickSlicer wrote:
What I think is interesting, though, is that I believe Hideyoshi actually undermined his own regency in ways. He somehow managed to kill several supporters of his regime and alienate others by killing their associates. He also aroused the ire of several clans in the Northeast such as the Mogami and Date. And the Korean War that he waged was more devastating to the West where more of his supporters could be found. A lot of blame is hurled at Ishida Mitsunari for the Toyotomi's downfall but I really feel like Hideyoshi himself is largely to blame.


That's why there's a lot of debate today on Hideyoshi's mental stability in his later years. Hideyoshi certainly made things more difficult for the future of his clan, and one of his greatest mistakes was sending Mitsunari to Korea.
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Re: Tokugawa Ieyasu= Sima Yi of the Sengoku Jidai?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:32 pm

I'm no expert on this era so feel free to rip me to shreds! My take on Ieyasu is that he was an unbeaten general in the field and was therefore capable. However what made him truly great was his political skills, he was so good at politics he never put himself in a position where he had to fight a loseable battle!
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Re: Tokugawa Ieyasu= Sima Yi of the Sengoku Jidai?

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:28 am

Sun Fin wrote:I'm no expert on this era so feel free to rip me to shreds! My take on Ieyasu is that he was an unbeaten general in the field and was therefore capable. However what made him truly great was his political skills, he was so good at politics he never put himself in a position where he had to fight a loseable battle!


I don't believe anyone would rip you to shreds for that post. :lol:

He was defeated by Shingen Takeda at Mikata. If Takeda didn't bite on his ploy he would have suffered a pretty lofty defeat.

I believe he may have also lost to Hideyoshi had he been the one who was able to reach and defeat Mitsuhide Akechi first. But, that's one of those things that can be a guess as much as an assured notion. Hideyoshi had a lot of momentum working for him and he was much greater than his son Hideyori.

Ieyasu definitely was awesome in politics and was able to set up one of greatest governments in Japanese history.
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