Tokugawa Ieyasu= Sima Yi of the Sengoku Jidai?

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Unread postby FuguNabe » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:39 am

Was going to add but Slickslicer pretty much put it as how I see it.
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Unread postby Marx!_II » Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:10 am

I admit my knowledge of matters Tokugawan is hazy at best, but could one claim that Tokugawa is like Sima Yi in that they are both fair commanders, but suited more to the political realm? In that way, Sima Yi seems more a match for Mitsunari Ishida.
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Re: Tokugawa Ieyasu= Sima Yi of the Sengoku Jidai?

Unread postby dymlos timbre » Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:15 am

I know this is 3 years old, and many may know this now, but Shingens "ass-whooping" was a wake up call but hardly decisive, im pretty sure smashing the field battle then have your forces who just badly defeated their opponent get raided adn pushed into a ravine is hardly a total ass whooping, shingen weakened tokugawa yes, but fell bac kt okai once tokugawa proved to be able to fight again, with the likes of uesugi on his rear its doubtful takeda would have totally defeated ieyasu the ycouldnt afford time for a seige battle, hojo may have been allies yes but seriously this isthe sengoku era, they come and go and shingen would be a fool to leave his back exposed to either of those two.

also by 1573 the azai and asakura clan were effectivly destroyed mnt hiei happpened,had shingen defeated tokugawa, a prolonged battle with the oda would prove fatal for his clan. Defeat oda? No sorry, postpone his comeing rapid expansion? i can see that.
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Re: Tokugawa Ieyasu= Sima Yi of the Sengoku Jidai?

Unread postby Jordan » Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:46 pm

I have to admit that my opinions have changed on this anyways. I can see the comparison a little bit more clearly now. Both men were patient at achieving their goals.

But there are ways in which they are different too. This is the problem with comparisons. They help communicate a message, but they are never perfect. Oftentimes they even greatly miss the mark.
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Re: Tokugawa Ieyasu= Sima Yi of the Sengoku Jidai?

Unread postby dymlos timbre » Wed Oct 13, 2010 3:22 am

I think i should fix up on some touches from my post, the tokugawa raid was essentially a bluff, the takeda unwillingness to get caught in a seige helped tokugawa keep his life, if the takeda committed to attack the castle there is a chance ieyasu could have met his end there. So takeda unwilling to press forward and taking the bluff from the tokugawa (witch made it seem like they could still fight) helped them.
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Re: Tokugawa Ieyasu= Sima Yi of the Sengoku Jidai?

Unread postby Ranbir » Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:15 pm

Heroes and Villians - The Shogun:








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Science snobbery.
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Re: Tokugawa Ieyasu= Sima Yi of the Sengoku Jidai?

Unread postby fukarming » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:52 am

I must say I never think of Tokugawa Ieyasu very highly. Sure he is capable but I will not rate him any higher than Takeda Shingen or Uesugi Kenshin. (Oda Nobunaga is far more talented than the rest of the Daimyo, though his personality brings to his downfall) The only thing Ieyasu good at is his long life (he dies at age 73, very long in medieval standard) - When all the capable person in his era died, he won by beating down some idiot (Toyotomi Hideyori - the winter siege is actually winnable - or at least able to show other Daimyo that Tokugawa is not unbeatable, but Hieyori surrender because of the artillery and let Tokugawa clear of Osaka's defence).

Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Ieyasu are similar in age (they born in 1534, 36, and 42 respectively). While you can say Nobunaga's personality brings to his downfall, Ieyasu succeed simply because he outlived Hideyoshi. If Ieyasu died before Hideyoshi, I am certain that the Tokugawa Shogunate will not appear in history at all. (It would be interesting if Ieyasu died after Segihara but before Tokugawa become Shogun, or the siege of Tokyo)

Actually, all the "second generation" during the Sengoku Jidai (Toyotomi Hideyori, grandson of Mori, son of Uesugi...etc) are not nearly as smart as the first generation, and the late coming smart ones (Masamune Date, the Shimazu clan...etc) rise too late to go against the one controlling the central area.

Even Ieyasu's son is not that smart, as proof by his military blunder during Segihara.
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Re: Tokugawa Ieyasu= Sima Yi of the Sengoku Jidai?

Unread postby dymlos timbre » Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:16 am

I think your downplaying iyeasu just a little to much karming. First he performed well in uniting mikawa, he had great feats while "serving" nobunaga (anegawa) he was also present in nagashino and helped with that victory. also the battle hideyoshi and tokugawa fought each other in was indeed small but the battle that did take place was a tokugawa victory, also the battle of sekigahara shows clearly how much the man learned as he was able to sway factions his way and in the end won the field battle and the political battle. hideyori surrendering osaka was inevitable there was no way around it he was doomed from the start of the osaka campaign.

as i mentioned earlier his ability to conduct a night raid and fool everyones so called might "tiger of kai" into thinking he was still capable of fighting back is a huge feat.

as for nobunaga, i dont agree with his personality getting him killed, yes it was rather bizarre but he was very well liked in the court and his inner circle and the common people loved him, mitsuhide's action are not clear enough to ever validate a "this is why he rebelled" since theres so many theories and stories its hard to tell witch are fact or false. Even rulers like kenshin who is always over praised for being the "benevolent" ruler executed one of his best officers for the sole reason he "thought" he was conspiring against him with no actual evidence.
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Re: Tokugawa Ieyasu= Sima Yi of the Sengoku Jidai?

Unread postby fukarming » Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:14 am

I think I don't consider Ieyasu very highly because he is always paired with Nobunaga and hideyoshi, as the "winner" in Sengoku Jidai. Nobunaga is called "the one who change medieval Japan" which is fitting due to his amazing expansion and his revolutionary mindset. Hideyoshi is called "the peasant who rised to the top", which explains itself. It is amazing if it happens in modern day. It is even more amazing to happen in medieval Japan where class are separated clearly. Ieyasu is called "the ultimate winner in Sengoku Jidai" since he establish Tokugawa Shogun and his family ruled almost 300 years. However, I cannot find how he is different from other "great Daimyo" in sengoku Jidai. All the great ones unify their lands and expand their territories while winning battles. In short, I don't see the "extra" stuff that qualify Ieyasu to be a whole level above Mori Motonari, Takeda Shingen or Uesugi Kenshin. I wouldn't disagree if you say he is slightly better than them, but I really couldn't see Ieyasu to be on a whole different level.

A short note about Nobunaga since it is not the thread for it: I read it somewhere that Nobunaga loved to drink, and when he is drunk, he loved to beat his subordinates up or at least make them feel bad. Other subordinates simply accept it as his character and love him for the way he is (Nobunaga is obviously very charismatic), but Mitsuhide is not and hold a grudge and that's what I mean by his personality.
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Re: Tokugawa Ieyasu= Sima Yi of the Sengoku Jidai?

Unread postby dymlos timbre » Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:04 am

iyeasu is not on a whole new level i say he is about even t othe many diamyo at times he displayed the makings of an amazing ruler and at times an idiot. hideyoshi's rise to power would never have been possible had it not been for nobunaga viewing talent over nobility. the only ruler in my opinion with the "extra" stuff was nobunaga you coudl beat him but he would always learn and come back to smash your army to bits later perfect example is when he fought the mori's navy, at first out classed learned adapted and totally wrecked mori's army. back to tokugawa, i personally WOULD rate him higher than shingen at least, why? well to be honest if you look at shingens record most of his famouse battles got some of his most Valued officers killed, if hes so great then why is he getting them killed? seems to run in the family his son got his officers killed too!

also nobunaga had a short temper but no it was not due to drinking that is a myth that has been disproven in many works, in reality he was actually a fond host of many tea parties and took them very seriously even held a debate for two men on buddhism and christianity and made sure it was argued fairly. However a prime example of his anger is when hes trying to set a good example and someone makes him look like a tool, mitsuhide served raw fish to nobles nobunaga was trying to sway! nobunaga insulted him and sent him back to make it correctly. its also good to note that if you ever read up on mitsuhide he was a very....strange man and his actions before honnoji and especially after honnoji is very interesting...the man just seemed insane i wish his reasons wouldnt remain a mystery but they are all we have is theories that no one can back up.
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