Tokugawa Ieyasu= Sima Yi of the Sengoku Jidai?

Discuss historical events and information concerning any culture, time, or location in our world (or even the frontier beyond).

Unread postby Jiang Qin » Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:01 am

How about the Smimazu clan ?
i know little about them.
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Unread postby Peter » Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:03 am

Tigger of Kai wrote
Have you ever seen one of those miserable muskets from the 1500s? They were extremely inaccurate even at medium range; in fact, a rifleman was lucky if it didn't backfire on him and shoot his own eye out. Of course the worst thing about them was the reload time - an individual "sniper" would get hacked to bits in seconds by horsemen or infantry. My point is just that the only way riflemen could have been used effectively was in mass formations that only fired at close range, and talk of "snipers" is a romantic fantasy.
yes, I knew that, but don't forget they are two types of rifle in 14 century Janpan. First one come straight from Europe where the range of maximum effective distance is around 90 meter and the second type the Janpanese built themselfs (range from 120 and 150 meters). Oda's army use the first type to fight the battle with 4th son of Shingen (that's why they have to built three layers of "horse-stop"...lol) and actually, I have no idea which type of fire arm, Iyeasue's army were equiped with, thus, I think Takeda Shingen was probably not assigned by sniper, but Janpanese did have the ability to use rifle as sniper weapon

The same is true for any question of history - multiple sources are a good thing, because you can check for accuracy by comparing them. I realize we'll never know for sure how Takeda Shingen died, and I'm not sure it matters that much, but my point is that when he did die Ieyasu was still a young man, and if they had been born around the same time Ieyasu wouldn't have gotten rid of him so easily, because he could never have defeated Shingen in combat. Same goes for Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Lord Oda. Thus chance played a large role in Ieyasu's success - do you agree?


definitely for Ieyasu, I am not so sure about Shingen VS., Nobunaga (sound like some kind RK game...lol). If Imagawa (the one who got surprised attacked) is comparable to a classical "go" player, than Nobunaga was the type of the guy who would change any rule as he please (thus he suceed attacking Imagawa b/c rain not b/c the tatics, Oda was almost ready for certain death). and if you, Tigger of Kai, assuming Shingen beat Ieyasu then face army of Oda, it's very likely Oda Nobunaga will suffer a huge defeat but for different reason (Shingen died at 1573) the time when Oda force was weakest, (he had fight with his brother in law and his ally, with warrior monks and with Ashitaka shougonate). I doubt he will have the strength to face Shingen.

but if these two guys meet each other on the field, I will be a good batttle (Oda is the king of short cuts...and Takeda is the master of strategy...lol)
maybe not as thrilling as Kenshin and Shingen at 4th midland battle (that one is my favorite...lol)

aghhhhh, I type too long.
you from Kingston Ontario dude, do you go to Queen's U?
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Unread postby Peter » Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:18 am

Jiang Qin wrote
How about the Smimazu clan ?
i know little about them.


ho ho ho, Smimazu Clan was the star of Kushu (literal tanslation as "nine provinces)...lol They original hold about three provinces down south (late 13 century) and gradually reduce down to one, but that's where the miracle begins. The 14th Smimazu leader had four extremly talented sons and with them starting around 1560 all the way to 1590 almost conquered all Kushu...they were down to two strategicall castles to reach totally conguest but unfortunatly Toyotomi Hideyoshi was the man who conquered the central Janpan (thus control the most lords) after the 15th Smimazu shaved his head and surroundered to Toyatomi family, yup, they were reduced back to that one province they started with...

p.s. if you have played Koei's "Kessen" the "devil Smimazu" is the second of the four brothers...lol (just as an aside, useless trivia...)
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Unread postby Koichi » Mon Dec 22, 2003 1:21 am

p wrote:
ho ho ho, Smimazu Clan was the star of Kushu (literal tanslation as "nine provinces)...lol They original hold about three provinces down south (late 13 century) and gradually reduce down to one, but that's where the miracle begins. The 14th Smimazu leader had four extremly talented sons and with them starting around 1560 all the way to 1590 almost conquered all Kushu...they were down to two strategicall castles to reach totally conguest but unfortunatly Toyotomi Hideyoshi was the man who conquered the central Janpan (thus control the most lords) after the 15th Smimazu shaved his head and surroundered to Toyatomi family, yup, they were reduced back to that one province they started with...

p.s. if you have played Koei's "Kessen" the "devil Smimazu" is the second of the four brothers...lol (just as an aside, useless trivia...)


Hehe it's the Shimazu clan and they were the rulers of Southern Kyushu Yes as p said, the Shimazu were an ancient samurai family dating back to the Fujiwara period. The sons of the 14th Shimazu daimyo (I believe you're referring to Shimazu Takahisa), were extremely talented and led one of the most brilliant campaigns in history. Shimazu Yoshihisa, Yoshihiro, Iehisa, and a host of energetic, talented retainers conquered most of Kyushu and watched it all collapse within their lifetime.

The chief rivals of the Shimazu family included Ryuzoji Takanobu of Hizen and Otomo Sorin of Bungo. With numerically inferior forces, the Shimazu crushed the Otomo army at Mimigawa and the Ryuzoji army at Okita Nawate, slaying Takanobu. The Shimazu were marching onto Funai castle to finish off the Otomo clan when Sorin requested aid from Toyotomi Hideyoshi.

The Toyotomi conquest of Kyushu, unfortunately, was very one-sided. Toyotomi Hideyoshi mustered a force of consisting of his allied daimyo on (Otomo) and off (Mori) Kyushu, a number of warrior monks on the island, totalling an estimated 250,000 soldiers. This was the largest force ever assembled by Toyotomi Hideyoshi, larger than his war on the Hojo or Korea, and the Shimazu could stand little chance. The invasion lasted around 3 to 4 months before the Shimazu surrendered at Kagoshima castle. Iehisa died fighting for his clan and most of the Shimazu conquests were confiscated.

It was not over for the family. The Shimazu were incorporated into the Toyotomi federation where Yoshihiro served in Korea and Sekigahara. However, their reign as a significant power had effectively ended.
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Unread postby Jiang Qin » Mon Dec 22, 2003 4:29 am

you guys are great!
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Unread postby Peter » Mon Dec 22, 2003 6:29 am

Jiang Qin wrote

you guys are great!


nay dude, give the credit to Koichi all I achieved is a series of spelling errors..lol

yo Koichi, it's almost ready. do you think I should be "clan based" or "person based" when I report thes info on WHD? and should I report the bigger clans first or it's doesn't matter

b/c I want to do an article for the Sanada Yukimura for the anitipated game "Samurai Warriors" so people can understand (also make an interesting read ... lol)
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Unread postby Koichi » Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:36 pm

p wrote:Jiang Qin wrote

you guys are great!


nay dude, give the credit to Koichi all I achieved is a series of spelling errors..lol

yo Koichi, it's almost ready. do you think I should be "clan based" or "person based" when I report thes info on WHD? and should I report the bigger clans first or it's doesn't matter

b/c I want to do an article for the Sanada Yukimura for the anitipated game "Samurai Warriors" so people can understand (also make an interesting read ... lol)


(bows) :oops: I just read this stuff alot. My nose spent a good year wedged between books on the Sengoku Jidai including Mary Elizabeth Berry's bio on Hideyoshi. Even though I started on the Three Kingdoms, as you can see I still love discussing this very interesting period.

p, I'm inclined to say "person based" because the character of the clans changed alot during the Sengoku Jidai. For example, the Uesugi were originally the Kanto-no-kami but the Hojo effectively drove them out. Uesugi Norimasa fled to the refuge of Nagao Kagetora and granted him the title and name of Uesugi Kenshin. However, Kenshin's clan operated from his base on Echigo and he never regained the Kanto from the Hojo.

Perhaps a more confusing one would be Oda Nobunaga's clan. After his assassination in 1582, his top generals grabbed what land they had and splintered into independent daimyo. Toyotomi Hideyoshi unified them after a few years' struggle but should we still list them as "Oda"?

Anyway, anything I could do in the meantime? I used to get alot of info from http://www.samurai-archives.com
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Unread postby Peter » Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm

Koichi wrote

p, I'm inclined to say "person based" because the character of the clans changed alot during the Sengoku Jidai. For example, the Uesugi were originally the Kanto-no-kami but the Hojo effectively drove them out. Uesugi Norimasa fled to the refuge of Nagao Kagetora and granted him the title and name of Uesugi Kenshin. However, Kenshin's clan operated from his base on Echigo and he never regained the Kanto from the Hojo.


that's what I thought so, but I'm afraid it's gona confuse the hell lot of none fans of 15 to 16 century of Janpanese history especially the beginners who take the interst of it. remember these long long names :lol:

Perhaps a more confusing one would be Oda Nobunaga's clan. After his assassination in 1582, his top generals grabbed what land they had and splintered into independent daimyo. Toyotomi Hideyoshi unified them after a few years' struggle but should we still list them as "Oda"?


their political system were very different. If I do remember correctly Oda when near the end of his carrer gathered land with full resource of 300 million kuku (1 kuku = amount of rice that would last a person a year) and unlike other daimyo-sub daimyo relationship. most of Oda's general's land still belong to Nobunaga the man himself (many historian argue that's his attempt for centralized governmantship). Oda Nobunaga, of course have few expections, first one be his brother in law (who resisded in north of a beautiful lake) and second one be daimyo that Sekon Shima use to work for...

but once again, Toyatomi Hideyoshi would consided daimyo already after the Odeni castle

hmm, I will go check the site you provided, I think I need to find a way to up load pictures and Janpanese map... :lol:
I think by showing where they located the readers would be easier to familiarize with the topics
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Unread postby Ricky » Sun Jun 10, 2007 1:41 pm

Yeah Tokugawa Leyasu was a very good general. Due to the fact he spent his life working for Yoshimoto who fought alot, Sima Yi also good I might equal Sima Yi wth Mitsunari Ishida. The Tokugawa made alot of great moves unlike the Toyotomi who called themselves the heirs to the Oda, buy they did get alot of help from old Oda retainers.Sima Yi and Leyasu are both good at what they did so they do seem a bit like equals.
First upload.
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Unread postby Jordan » Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:04 pm

I don't see the comparison, unless you consider Sima Yi to be the usurper of Wei (which I don't. I see his sons, instead, as the people who supplanted their former dynasty). Otherwise, I wouldn't say that Tokugawa Ieyasu was that much like Sima Yi at all...

With a meager two provinces (and help from his ally Oda Nobunaga) he held his ground against the superior forces of Takeda Shingen.


Albeit barely. 'Held his ground' wouldn't be the phrase I'd use to describe Shingen ass-whooping the Tokugawa. At Mikatagahara and then in subsequent sieges against the Tokugawa conducted by Shingen's son Katsuyori, the Tokugawa were forced into a very unfavorable position. If Nobunaga hadn't saved Ieyasu at Nagashino, the Tokugawa may have ceased to exist. Where was Sima Yi in a similar situation where an ally rescued him from total eradication?

Tokugawa Ieyasu was the only daimyo to oppose Toyotomi Hideyoshi and win. In 1584, Tokugawa Ieyasu defeated a Toyotomi army at Nagakute.


This is debatable, since the Shimazu also defeated clans that had technically been absorbed by the Toyotomi in the Battle of Hetsugigawa.

Afterwards, Tokugawa Ieyasu submitted to Toyotomi Hideyoshi and his huge fief of 5 provinces was incorporated into the Toyotomi Federation. He remained passive until Toyotomi Hideyoshi requested his assistance in the war against Hojo Ujimasa. Tokugawa Ieyasu complied, and was rewarded the wealthy Kanto plain as his new fief.


How is this comparable to Sima Yi? Under the Caos, he was not that often passive. He moved with speed and vigor, defeated rebellions of the realm and was generally a great boon to the Wei cause.
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