Tokugawa Ieyasu= Sima Yi of the Sengoku Jidai?

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Tokugawa Ieyasu= Sima Yi of the Sengoku Jidai?

Unread postby Koichi » Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:32 pm

Tokugawa Ieyasu was arguably the most talented field commander in the Sengoku Jidai. He grew up then took a position as a general in the army of Imagawa Yoshimoto and waged war, pretty successfully, against the forces of Oda Nobunaga. After Imagawa Yoshimoto was killed, Tokugawa Ieyasu seized the remaining Imagawa provinces of Mikawa and Toutoumi and made a fief for himself. With a meager two provinces (and help from his ally Oda Nobunaga) he held his ground against the superior forces of Takeda Shingen. He directly contributed to the end of the Takeda clan by defeating Takeda Katsuyori in Temmokuzan. Tokugawa Ieyasu was the only daimyo to oppose Toyotomi Hideyoshi and win. In 1584, Tokugawa Ieyasu defeated a Toyotomi army at Nagakute.

Afterwards, Tokugawa Ieyasu submitted to Toyotomi Hideyoshi and his huge fief of 5 provinces was incorporated into the Toyotomi Federation. He remained passive until Toyotomi Hideyoshi requested his assistance in the war against Hojo Ujimasa. Tokugawa Ieyasu complied, and was rewarded the wealthy Kanto plain as his new fief.

2 years after the death of Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Tokugawa Ieyasu defeated Ishida Mitsunari's coalition at Sekigahara and 3 years later made himself Shogun. From his submission in 1584 to his stunning victory in 1600, Tokugawa Ieyasu made himself subservient and waited 16 years. Like Sima Yi, Tokugawa Ieyasu was aware of his own talents. Yet he was aware of his political capabilities and awaited the opportune time to seize power. Upon doing so, Tokugawa's family ruled Japan for the next 250 years.
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Unread postby Peter » Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:54 am

yup, agree with you but only on one tiny minor note:

arguably the most talented field commander
, that honour actually belong to Takeda Shingen who fought nearly 87 battles in his life and 90% of these battle is invasive purpose (as suppose to defense)...

but hey you are right about the similarity b/c these two...

this part is edited later, I actually found the correct statistics about Shingen

72 Battles, 49 victories, 3 defeated, 20 unclear outcome... is the actually record

about unclear outcomes, sometimes a battle was fought b/4 two forces and both decided to withdraw thus, resulting no true victor of the battle
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Unread postby Jiang Qin » Thu Dec 18, 2003 5:08 am

Uesugi Kenshin of the Uesugi clan ,
Takeda Shingen of Takeda ,
and Hojo ................(forgot) .

the three clan fought for many years they were like the Three Kingdom warring states.

but Tokugawa Ieyasu looks more like the Sima Yan.
Oda Nobunaga should be the Sima Yi of Sengoku Jidai
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Re: Tokugawa Ieyasu= Sima Yi of the Sengoku Jidai?

Unread postby Tigger of Kai » Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:33 pm

Jiang Qin wrote:Hojo ................(forgot)
Do you mean Hojo Ujimasa (1538-1590)?

Koichi wrote:Tokugawa Ieyasu was arguably the most talented field commander...With a meager two provinces (and help from his ally Oda Nobunaga) he held his ground against the superior forces of Takeda Shingen...
At Mitaka, Takeda Shingen easily defeated the combined forces of Tokugawa Ieyasu and Oda Nobunaga.

Koichi wrote:He directly contributed to the end of the Takeda clan by defeating Takeda Katsuyori in Temmokuzan.
Yes, Ieyasu knew he could never defeat Shingen, so he waited until he died of old age. Look, Ieyasu deserves to be remembered for his great qualities. He was patient, he was ambitious, he was a clever and ruthless negotiator, but his armies could never challenge Shingen's. In the end Ieyasu was the one who unified Japan, so give both men their due.

All respect to Takeda Shingen, the TIGER OF KAI!!
Mithril! The dwarves tell no tales. But just as it was the foundation of their wealth, so also it was their destruction. They delved too greedily and too deep, and disturbed that from which they fled.
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Unread postby Koichi » Thu Dec 18, 2003 3:48 pm

Jiang Qin wrote:Uesugi Kenshin of the Uesugi clan ,
Takeda Shingen of Takeda ,
and Hojo ................(forgot) .

the three clan fought for many years they were like the Three Kingdom warring states.

but Tokugawa Ieyasu looks more like the Sima Yan.
Oda Nobunaga should be the Sima Yi of Sengoku Jidai


Well, in the novel Sima Yan didn't do crap but Tokugawa Ieyasu fought hard and waited patiently for his opportunity. Hence I compare him to Sima Yi rather than Sima Yan.

Do you mean Hojo Ujimasa (1538-1590)?


His father, Hojo Ujiyasu was a better match for Takeda Shingen and Uesugi Kenshin. Ujiyasu greatly expanded the Hojo realm while holding his ground against 2 militarily superior daimyo.

At Mitaka, Takeda Shingen easily defeated the combined forces of Tokugawa Ieyasu and Oda Nobunaga.


Well, I never said Tokugawa Ieyasu was invincible. However, despite being smashed at Mikatagahara, he managed to save Hamamatsu.

Yes, Ieyasu knew he could never defeat Shingen, so he waited until he died of old age


Takeda Shingen died of a sniper shot at Noda castle and his death was a carefully kept secret for about 2-3 years. I certainly give the Tiger of Kai his due respect. However, like they said in the 3k, when two tigers fight, one will be hurt. Like Zhuge Liang, Takeda Shingen was a great tactician but Tokugawa Ieyasu was able to outwait and outwit all his rivals.
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Unread postby Tigger of Kai » Thu Dec 18, 2003 5:40 pm

Koichi wrote:Takeda Shingen died of a sniper shot at Noda castle...
I'll acknowledge that there's some controversy over Shingen's death, but obviously there was no such thing as a "sniper shot" in the 1570s. The only enemies Shingen couldn't whip were old age and disease.

Koichi wrote:Takeda Shingen was a great tactician but Tokugawa Ieyasu was able to outwait and outwit all his rivals.
Now I think you are getting closer to the truth. Without the expedient deaths of Shingen and Toyotomi Hideyoshi, not to mention Nobunaga, Ieyasu would never have become Shogun. His accomplishments speak for themselves, but just because he achieved the best result, does not mean he was the best in all areas. Luck plays a critical part in all truly great endeavors, and Ieyasu was luckiest when it counted the most.
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Unread postby Koichi » Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:40 pm

Tigger of Kai wrote:Now I think you are getting closer to the truth. Without the expedient deaths of Shingen and Toyotomi Hideyoshi, not to mention Nobunaga, Ieyasu would never have become Shogun. His accomplishments speak for themselves, but just because he achieved the best result, does not mean he was the best in all areas. Luck plays a critical part in all truly great endeavors, and Ieyasu was luckiest when it counted the most.


Well, yes, just as we could say, if Cao Cao didn't spend his life conquering half of China, the Sima family couldn't usurp his weakling descendants and set up the Jin dynasty.
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Unread postby Jiang Qin » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:24 am

agree , takeda shingen is still the best but if Uesugi Kenshin lived longer he'll definately be a great guy
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Unread postby Peter » Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:32 pm

Tigger of Kai wrote
I'll acknowledge that there's some controversy over Shingen's death, but obviously there was no such thing as a "sniper shot" in the 1570s. The only enemies Shingen couldn't whip were old age and disease.


well, if you sim at the rifel for what's anticipated enemy movement, technicall, it's a "sniper shot"

Jiang Qin wrote
agree , takeda shingen is still the best but if Uesugi Kenshin lived longer he'll definately be a great guy


I am afraid that's not the general consenses among Janpanese historians.
yes, Uesugi Kenshin fought for justice and honour but he fail at government his own land. The only thing Uesugi Kenshin is considered great or at least equal to Shingen is his ability for field battle. And, to add comment about he live longer, don't worry, he is already great, unlike the heir of Imagawa family who live to a ripe old age and abusolutely useless...

just bit add on, Tigger of Kai, I don't know weather you have the access to Janpanese history books, the problem is they are different between each. Shingen's have at least three to four explanations and be honest with you, there is no way you can validate any one of them...
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Unread postby Tigger of Kai » Sat Dec 20, 2003 4:53 am

p wrote:well, if you sim at the rifel for what's anticipated enemy movement, technicall, it's a "sniper shot"
Have you ever seen one of those miserable muskets from the 1500s? They were extremely inaccurate even at medium range; in fact, a rifleman was lucky if it didn't backfire on him and shoot his own eye out. Of course the worst thing about them was the reload time - an individual "sniper" would get hacked to bits in seconds by horsemen or infantry. My point is just that the only way riflemen could have been used effectively was in mass formations that only fired at close range, and talk of "snipers" is a romantic fantasy.
p wrote:just bit add on, Tigger of Kai, I don't know weather you have the access to Janpanese history books, the problem is they are different between each. Shingen's have at least three to four explanations and be honest with you, there is no way you can validate any one of them...
The same is true for any question of history - multiple sources are a good thing, because you can check for accuracy by comparing them. I realize we'll never know for sure how Takeda Shingen died, and I'm not sure it matters that much, but my point is that when he did die Ieyasu was still a young man, and if they had been born around the same time Ieyasu wouldn't have gotten rid of him so easily, because he could never have defeated Shingen in combat. Same goes for Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Lord Oda. Thus chance played a large role in Ieyasu's success - do you agree?
Mithril! The dwarves tell no tales. But just as it was the foundation of their wealth, so also it was their destruction. They delved too greedily and too deep, and disturbed that from which they fled.
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